118. Dale Saran
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Dale Saran, Esq.: [00:00:00] If you look at the top five DoD contractors, you know, back in the day, it was always, it's like McDonnell Douglas or Boeing, you know, it's aircraft manufacturers or Raytheon, you know, weapons manufacturers, you know, have always been the biggest DoD contract. You look at the pharmaceutical industry, while huge by comparison to like Boeing, Donald Douglas or whatever, we're pretty small potatoes in the world of government contract.

Dale Saran, Esq.: It's much harder to sell poison to the populace on its own merit. It's a lot easier when you can force it into them and the U. S. government buys all of it. And that's what happened to with these gene therapy products. They were government contracts, open ended, complete liability immunity. I mean, you know, everybody's kind of covered this in the public.

Dale Saran, Esq.: It turned Pfizer from, you know, like vaulted them all the way to near the top. They're not one of the top DoD contractors. And once that happens, it's basically you're getting your immune system, you know, on a license agreement. It's like those software license [00:01:00] agreements booster every six months. It's your immune system on a license agreement that the DoD has with Pfizer.[00:02:00]

Nurse Kelly: Welcome to After Hours with Dr. Sigoloff. On this podcast, you will be encouraged to question everything.

Nurse Kelly: And to have the courage to stand for the truth.

Nurse Kelly: And now, to your host, Dr. Sigoloff.

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Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I also want to remind everybody to go check out MyCleanBeef. com slash After Hours. That's MyCleanBeef. com slash After Hours where you can get some of the best beef that I've ever tasted and probably the best beef you've ever tasted as well. Now, next we have a very special guest. Dale Saran is an attorney.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: He's a, he's an attorney and he's, he's old school. He, he was the one in Dover Schrumsfeld that won against the Secretary of Defense back in 2004. Dale, it's great to have you on today.

Dale Saran, Esq.: Thanks, Sam. Great to be on. [00:04:00] How are you? Doing

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: great. And I'm encouraged to know that there is someone that did fight back when, when I was still in, in college, there was someone fighting, and now that same man is still here fighting and leading the charge.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Tell us what's going on and, and what you're doing now.

Dale Saran, Esq.: Well, it's um, you know, it's uh, interesting. It's like deja vu all over again, to quote Yogi Berra. Hold on. I got a cat yelling at me. Hey, shut up. Um, but, uh, my cat's going nuts. Um, the, um, yeah, the, the frustrating thing, I guess, would be, you know, the first part, um, when I got started with this, uh, you know, Todd calendar, a gentleman, you know, an attorney, you and I both know well, reached out to me.

Dale Saran, Esq.: Um, and I was, I was doing completely other things, you know, um, and, um, Todd reached out to me and had heard of me from the Dovey Rumsfeld suits and I'll just, um, I was there. I was a part of it for sure. I did some work on it, but the lead counsel for that was a gentleman named Lou Michaels, who some, who some folks may know he's still [00:05:00] around and doing some other lawsuits related to his litigation specialties.

Dale Saran, Esq.: But, um, um, Todd reached out to me and, uh, You know, kind of roped me in and it was frustrating because we couldn't get this stopped. I think, you know, you were, you were there. I'm not telling anything you don't know, but some of your listeners might not. You were part of that original crew, really. And we were trying to stop this whole thing from happening, you know?

Dale Saran, Esq.: And then, and it was frustrating, um, to, to see that ball get rolling and know, you know, that there was, once it got going, it was going to be hard to stop. So we, we fought for, you know, injunctive relief. We've still got one case going there for declaratory relief, which is. Basically, just a declaration from a federal court that, hey, these are all the laws they violated.

Dale Saran, Esq.: And so that case is still alive. That's in Texas. But, um, I think Congress did the D. O. D. a favor in, uh, rescinding the mandate. When they did so, it kind of let the D. O. D. off the hook in a lot of the litigation. Uh, some of those cases are still out there. But, uh, what it meant for, [00:06:00] uh, myself, for me, Brandon Johnson, and Annie Meyer, who, who have all had our own individual lawsuits as well as larger class action lawsuits in this, in this whole fight against the military vaccine mandates.

Dale Saran, Esq.: And, um, uh, once the rescind happened, we all thought that that opened the door immediately to. Um, probably that the injunctive relief was going to be in the past now and, um, would be mooted. And that now we needed to get, um, you know, correction. And that meant, you know, uh, getting all the folks who'd been wrongfully kicked out.

Dale Saran, Esq.: You know, it was not a legal order. It was an illegal. Um, that was clear from the beginning. And so now we had to start working on getting relief for people. And so we filed three lawsuits in the court of federal claims, which is a specialized court, kind of a weird court, but, um, a specialized court, federal court that hears back military back bay claims it has for.

Dale Saran, Esq.: Since just after the, uh, uh, Mexican American war, that's what it [00:07:00] was set up for, it was for veterans. Fundamentally, it's a veterans court. And, um, we filed there and we've got three class actions ongoing. And that's really, uh, kinda, you know, been in the news a little bit lately since the army, as you know, is, is dying on recruiting numbers.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: What are the names of those cases?

Dale Saran, Esq.: So, um, let's check the big board here behind me. Um, that is, uh, Botello. Across the top there, you see the three. Those are the three names of the lawsuits. Harkins is named for the lead plaintiff, Chris Harkins, who was about six months from retiring. Sorry, somebody's being insistent.

Dale Saran, Esq.: Um, that's named for, uh, uh, Chris Harkins. Who's a Coastie who, um, you believe this guy? Unbelievable. This is what happens when you have a bunch of these things. Um, that's named for Chris Harkins. Who's a Coastie who was six months from retirement, six months was 20 when they kicked him out. And then, um, we've got Botello, which is [00:08:00] named for, um, uh, Jeremiah Botello, who is a, uh, Uh, Arizona, um, National Guard Chaplain, and then, um, and he was also part of some of the lawsuits.

Dale Saran, Esq.: And then the final lawsuit is, uh, named for Nick Bassin. So we have Bassin, Botello, and Harkins. And Bassin is for the, uh, folks who got straight up kicked out. That's for the active duty folks who, who got, um, thrown off of active duty. So the reason we've got three different lawsuits is because that's just the nature of how the D.

Dale Saran, Esq.: O. D. budgeting. And, and how the Court of Claims works, how you can basically state a claim. So we had to. We had to kind of split them up into three different suits because of legal authorities for each of them.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And how big are the plaintiff lists in each one of these? Because if I'm not mistaken, one of these is enormous, isn't it?

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Or are they all enormous?

Dale Saran, Esq.: So we don't have good numbers. You know, the DOD is never entirely forthcoming. I mean, you know how it goes trying to get an answer out of them. A straight answer is [00:09:00] about impossible. We picked the numbers from some different congressional hearings. The, uh, There's a post article or something where the DOD admitted to, I think in their own press release, they said that they canned 69, 000 National Guardsmen.

Dale Saran, Esq.: And then, yeah, 69, 000, at least. And then there's, there's some other articles that put the number at like, there's another one where they're like, yeah, we lost like 85, 000 from the Army or something. So you can't, it's like, well, wait a minute. Is that just from the Army or like? What are we talking about here?

Dale Saran, Esq.: So it's tough to get a straight set, but I would say that roughly speaking, the BASN case for those active duty who were discharged, we get a pretty good sense that the number of active duty discharged was probably a little less than 10, 000, probably somewhere in the range of 9, 000 ish. Um, and then the Battello folks, the national guardsmen who either.

Dale Saran, Esq.: Um, dropped [00:10:00] or, you know, placed involuntarily into the, into a non drilling status or whatever that that number just basically the people that cut funding for that number is probably between 70, I don't know, 70, 80, 000 ish again, you know, that that number is even tougher to. Get, get an answer to. And then the Coasties, um, you know, that lawsuit, I know there were about, um, oh, we saw some number of how many people total filed for RFRA claims and all that.

Dale Saran, Esq.: We know everybody there that that whole process was a sham. So everybody got denied. But, um, you know, that's another lawsuit that's likely to be a few thousand anyway. So I think roughly all of them together are probably. Comfortably in the range of, of a hundred thousand servicemen and women who got, who got either, you know, involuntarily discharged, uh, dropped to the ready reserves or just they cut their funding and we're like, that's it.

Dale Saran, Esq.: We, you know, we cut [00:11:00] ties with you. It's pretty, pretty amazing. We think it's the largest post Cold II drawdown, like where, where there, what, where it wasn't a, A planned exit, exodus of people where there was something like this, where it was just one day, there were this many people and the next day there were that many gone, you know, I mean, it was, it's a huge number, huge.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And when you, when you look at it that way, you're like, wow, you know, it wasn't, you know, sold as a drawdown, but it essentially was an enormous drawdown. I mean, it's just mind blowing. And yeah, we don't know, well,

Dale Saran, Esq.: congressional approval, you know, which is the interesting part of it. It was just the DOD did it on its own.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I don't know if any of your numbers are including. People who were, because I know for a fact, I've been told independently by two different, uh, service members that here at Fort Huachuca, in fact, they, they kick people out as refusal to train, because there's a schoolhouse here, and the [00:12:00] reason they refuse to train, they didn't actually refuse to train, they weren't allowed into the schoolhouse.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Because they didn't get the shot. And so they were kicked out as a refusal to train. I don't know if there's a place for those people anywhere in your, your lawsuits.

Dale Saran, Esq.: Yeah. I mean, there is in my head and, and I've often said, you know, when, when I've been asked about this publicly, I've tried to make clear that I don't believe the DOD's numbers for an instant.

Dale Saran, Esq.: Like it's a vast undercounting of the real effects of what happened of the policy, because I mean, I, I just had a call this morning with a possible, you know, client who heard about this. And he said, well, I don't know if I really qualify because I just, when my ETS came up, I had, I was planning on re enlisting, but they were like, well, you can't, unless you're willing to get the VAX, you know, because you're non deployable.

Dale Saran, Esq.: I mean, they had this, this sort of self referential circle where they define things a certain way and then you didn't meet the definition and it meant you were, like you said, you're like a failure to [00:13:00] train or, you know, there were a lot of those. So the real numbers of. Of people who left, I would estimate are probably on, I'll say double, I think the total number is probably double.

Dale Saran, Esq.: So if there were a hundred thousand that we can point to and say, these were people who were kicked out, who went unwillingly, you know, who said, I don't want to go. And then, you know, we're involuntarily gone the voluntary numbers. And by voluntary, I am using my quotey fingers here intentionally because those are people who were coerced out.

Dale Saran, Esq.: They were given an ultimatum fundamentally, and they were like, nah, okay, I'm out. And I'll bet those numbers of people who didn't re enlist or otherwise are retirement eligible, or just allowed their discharges to expire, you know, who otherwise would have stayed, I'll bet that number's, I'll bet it's another 100, 000.

Dale Saran, Esq.: Nobody will, the DOD will never admit that. And they can't for legal reasons and other reasons. Um, but I guarantee you that [00:14:00] that number is, is, uh, at least another half and maybe as high as double. It wouldn't surprise me at all.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Well, I, I fall into that category. I was going to stay in the reserves until retirement and, and the hardships that they put me through just made it too impossible for me to stay.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And the crazy part is I had a letter also signed by eight congressmen asking if I could get out two months early and instead of approving that, the secretary of defense Wormuth said. No, you are going to stay until the end of your, you know, your, your contract.

Dale Saran, Esq.: Change of pretension. I, you know, I have experience that maybe dispositionally suited me to this and not just the Anthrax experience, but that arose out of, you know, I was a, I was a big green machine guy.

Dale Saran, Esq.: You know, I joined, uh, I was, I'm a little ashamed to admit this, but I'll say it anyway. You know, I was part of the Top Gun generation. So I was a junior in high school when Top Gun came out in 1986. And so I ran, like we all did, you know, like, woo! Kissing Kelly McGillis! [00:15:00] Yes! You know, and, and we're going to get a, we thought we were going to get issued a motorcycle, and all that stuff, you know.

Dale Saran, Esq.: And, and so, I thought I was a, you know, a lifer. So I, I came in as part of that generation, and I was a pilot, and then, you know, wound up being a lawyer. But I still had in my head, I still had the idea, all the ideas that most of the people do about when you join. You know, I thought about what I thought the institution was.

Dale Saran, Esq.: And, um, then I became a, uh, I interned as a prosecutor while I was at law school and I, and that was kind of cool. And then at Camp Lejeune, and then I wound up in Okinawa, Japan. And my first assignment was actually as a criminal defense attorney. And that was a real eye opener because you suddenly find yourself defending.

Dale Saran, Esq.: You know, in many cases people, the, the 1 percent or 5 percent or whatever you want to call them, you know, knuckleheads largely, but you know, there's a, in the military who get themselves in trouble, but you know, there's a big chunk of those folks who are, you know, otherwise decent folks who find themselves in tough [00:16:00] circumstances, but it wasn't long until I realized just how, just how, uh, bad and how much pressure and what kinds of forces the military can bring to bear on people that doesn't like.

Dale Saran, Esq.: Yeah. Even if they're innocent and that was a real eye opener that made me that made me look at everything a lot differently You know I can tell you some funny stories from when I was a pilot like I was the duty officer one night and a guy Another captain got called, went to the barracks and he smelled weed and he kicked in someone's door and, you know, caught them, you know, red handed.

Dale Saran, Esq.: Oh my God, you know, and I kind of laugh about it now. They were smoking weed in the barracks. I laugh, I can laugh about it now. But at the time, like, as a lawyer, I can think about it and be like, yeah, that was as unlawful a search as it's possible to be. Dude, you know, no warrant, nothing, booted the door open, you know.

Dale Saran, Esq.: To heck with your constitution. And it was kind of funny as a, you know, as a, an officer, as a [00:17:00] combat arms officer, but you know, when you're on the other side of it as an attorney and people start getting thrown in jail over things like failure to take a vaccine that's not licensed, you know, you start to appreciate, maybe you look at things a little bit differently, but that was, that was the big eye opener.

Dale Saran, Esq.: And I think a lot of the folks that are right now with this happening, you know, like yourself, many have found out, yeah, this is, um, when the, when the military turns. Uh, vaccines into, you know, your health decisions into loyalty tests. It's, it's a problem. It's a real problem, you know, for the whole force, and for America too.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Because it became a loyalty test over health because it's not even a vaccine. It's a gene therapy. And it's like, okay, you know, it's not, it's not as bad as bend the knee. It's, it's so much worse that bend the knee and your life may never be the same.

Dale Saran, Esq.: Yep. It's, uh, it's unfortunate. I feel for a [00:18:00] lot of folks who, um, you know, dispositionally feel called to serve in the military or come from a proud tradition of that, but what's happening right now with the recruiting woes and the, and the numbers, you know, uh, that the military wants and needs to bring back in and, and you see for what to do, you know, what, what great battle would you be called to partake in and potentially risk your life for, you know, what defense of the nation, what constitutional threat, and you got to start scratching your head and wondering.

Dale Saran, Esq.: You know, so

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: yeah, and I feel awful for the people that took it because they were coerced. I mean, this was an enormous psychological operation against not just the military, but I would say a large part of the military, but against the doctors and there's doctors that still recommend this today and there's patients that are terrified to not get the next shot.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I mean, I've seen someone that had seven shots. It's insane. And they're terrified to not get the next one because they've been the psyop work to did exactly what it's supposed to do.

Dale Saran, Esq.: [00:19:00] Yeah, fear, you know, the whole point of any, you know, almost all psychological operations at some level is they're, you know, they're intended to manipulate emotions and, and the more powerful the emotion, the better results you can get, so to speak, from the, from the perspective of the, the person perpetrating the PSYOP, and we've got folks in this lawsuit, by the way, you know, it's interesting to represent military people because a good number of them recognized all of what went on.

Dale Saran, Esq.: I mean, the Operation Warp Speed, um, You know, the rollout of the vaccine had, had a concomitant, uh, psychological operation component that went with it. It was information warfare went alongside the, the need to, you know, make the vaccine. And, and we're still finding out pieces of that from various media sources like, you know, Matt Taibbi and Michael Schellenberger and others, you know, continue to the Twitter files, all of that.

Dale Saran, Esq.: Continue to, um, show that this, this was a [00:20:00] coordinated psychological operation against the American public by It's all government.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And I don't know if you ever had the opportunity or the, uh, or course into watching the video that they made the, especially the army, they made the army watch this video of propaganda.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And if you're interested in listening to it, go back to my very first episode is before I was doing video. Um, and I, I play a bit of it and I pause it and I critique it. It is the worst propaganda I've ever seen. It's just so blatantly, you know, scripted. It's it's horrendous. It's awful. And with even just not even a scientific mind or a medical mind, you can easily blow holes through all of it.

Dale Saran, Esq.: Yeah, it's, you know, I used to, I used to think that when I was a kid, the idea of the big lie, you know, telling the big lie and just telling it hard. I always thought that that was, you know, the kind of Joseph Goebbels notion of, you know, the Nazi model of propaganda. I always thought that was crazy because You know, when you're a kid, like, my world consisted of my [00:21:00] parents, and what I had seen, what I had learned quickly was that you almost always got caught lying, and the big lie would eventually lead to the big ass whipping, and so I couldn't ever believe that you could get away with it just by Like that was never going to work on my dad, you know, or my mom, but I will say that as you get older, you do start to realize there is a certain power in it.

Dale Saran, Esq.: And you can see it really publicly. Like, you know, I mean, look at Clinton shaking his finger at the American public. You know, I did not have sexual relations, you know, and a lot of people just absolutely bought that, you know, absolutely bought that hook, although to anyone who kind of, you know, it was a little bit distance from it.

Dale Saran, Esq.: If it wasn't their guy, you know, it's the same thing with, you know, athletes on the. When they pop positive for steroids or whatever, you know, when it's your team, the guy's got a great justification or you believe him, you know, when it's somebody else's team, you're like, the guy's a lying cheat, you know, take all their awards.

Dale Saran, Esq.: And so it's, I think we, the biggest [00:22:00] part of being of arming yourself against it is to kind of be able to step away from your own, your own propaganda, you know, the stories you tell yourself. And, and then you can kind of hear it in the other team's context and you go, Oh, wow. You know, it was, um, yeah, there are a lot of holes in it.

Dale Saran, Esq.: It's not particularly good. It's ham handed, but I, you know, I think Malone's talked about this. Many other people, you know, have, and I've seen it in other contexts, but the neuro linguistic programming, I mean, you just beat people over the head and say the same thing over and over again, just repeat it.

Dale Saran, Esq.: And, uh, But you can get a big chunk of the people and just go along,

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: you know, we're kind of conditioned this from from childhood, you know, because you mentioned the big line. The first thing that popped in my head was Santa Claus. And if you have kids listening to this, you know, and you want them to believe in Santa Claus turn off right now.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: But like, we don't teach our kids that Santa Claus is is real because yeah, he's he's a fun imaginary thing. And we tell them, look, other kids need to figure out if it's if it if they believe in or not, don't don't you burst that bubble. You But it's mommy and daddy who [00:23:00] buy these things and bring them to you because we don't want when they get older to be like, y'all been lying to us with this enormous lie that even NORAD's involved with saying they're, they're tracking Santa flying across the United States.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: It's like, we're not going to be a part of that.

Dale Saran, Esq.: Right. Yeah. And, and, and what else? I mean, you, you really do, you do kind of a disservice where you create this alternate reality, you know, with the expectation that eventually they're going to have to confront the real thing. I mean, why is that? You know, it's a, it's been a lesson for everybody. You know, it's been tough because I mean, I have people in my family even who knew, you know, who knew I wrote a book about my experience with the anthrax vaccine, who know, you know, knew me when I was litigating all this stuff.

Dale Saran, Esq.: And yet, um, Yeah. Yeah. When the vaccine came down, it was, you know, as if all the things that I had talked to them about just evaporated, you know, and so it made it, you know, they're like, they would ask me, you know, like, well, what are you going to do? You know, I'm like, what do you think I'm going to do? You [00:24:00] know, come on, you know, who are you talking to here?

Dale Saran, Esq.: And so it's amazing to me that even people I thought who I thought by virtue of their closeness to me would, would have some immunity. to this kind of, uh, the, this whole psyop over the, these gene therapies. Like you said, not even vaccines. I mean, that was the thing that struck me about them right up front was like, I, you know, the, the filings that the companies that made them in their declarations to the security exchange commission, they say right on there that these are gene therapy products.

Dale Saran, Esq.: Moderna's filings, Pfizer's filings. They had always classified them as gene therapies, but then. They said that, um, uh, for purposes of us, they would call, they would be, you know, the FDA was going to treat them as vaccines. And that right there was part of the SIOP. I mean, I read that from, for somebody.

Dale Saran, Esq.: Like me, it was kind of a legal background in this, this whole vaccine regime, you know, the one [00:25:00] thing you can at least say about the anthrax vaccine was it was an actual vaccine. It was a real vaccine, you know, they actually derived that from, you know, like the thing itself. And, um, this, it was clear to me right away when they started calling these vaccines that that was, that was an intentional.

Dale Saran, Esq.: They were relying upon the, that word and all of the connotations that go with it. And, and the sense that people have are, oh, vaccine equal good, vaccine prevent bad, you know, and, um, that that was right out of the gate, that it was a conscious choice to call these things vaccines when they don't even meet the DOD's own definition for a vaccine, um, in the, in the DOD instruction 6205.

Dale Saran, Esq.: 02. For all you folks keeping track at home and want to make sure Dale is still on his game. I believe that's the, I believe that's where the citation is to the DOD definition of vaccine.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I'm reading this, this phrase. Uh, [00:26:00] it was, it was, it was from FRAG 05 and it was in the paragraph, I can't remember the name of the paragraph right now.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Um, and I read this for a year before it dawned on me what it was actually saying. Because I changed the words in my head. In my head I read, you know, the commanders must ensure that there are FDA approved vaccines on hand to provide for blah blah blah, for their service members. And that's not what it said.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: What it actually said is, ensure there's enough DOD approved vaccine.

Dale Saran, Esq.: Oh, wow.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I was reading that for about a year before I realized that says D. O. D. approved vaccine, that does not say F. D. A.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And if you need that, I can send that to you. It's in, it's, it's

Dale Saran, Esq.: I'm sure I have it, you know, I'm sure I've read it like you have probably a dozen times and blown right past that paragraph, you know, but that, that would be [00:27:00] perfectly revealing of what was going on. You know, there was a lot of that. I mean, a lot of the paperwork I knew, you know, I got things early on because I was the anti vax guy and I got known for that in the Marine Corps.

Dale Saran, Esq.: And, you know. Between all the stuff I did in 99 and then all the way through Dovey Rumsfeld. So a lot of people knew me as the anti vax guy. Which is kind of funny because my shot record looks probably like most people in the DOD. You know, I look like the human in question. I think I got a copy around here somewhere.

Dale Saran, Esq.: Um, uh, but, you know, I got all kinds of stupid stuff. And now, you know, over my dead body will I let anyone inject me with anything. I mean, I just, you know, and people, I laugh now, you know, the whole term anti vaxxer, like, Hey man, you turned me into one. I didn't start this way, you know? Um, but, uh, it, it was something that, uh, it struck me immediately.

Dale Saran, Esq.: That, you know, the whole do si do they did there with the FDA, and then having a DoD official approve, I [00:28:00] mean, that's at the heart of our case, you know, it always has been. Having DoD officials making, uh, clinical judgments about the interchangeability of products is, is just, uh, That's a strange new world, you know,

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: it sure is.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And what you're referencing is, um, what was the name of that lady? Yeah.

Dale Saran, Esq.: Adderam, uh, assistant secretary of defense, uh, for health affairs or undersecretary of defense or something like that. You know, who, who, uh, did the famous interchangeability memos and did it for both spike facts and for the, uh, BNT one 62, the Pfizer version, but substituted an unlicensed product in for a licensed one said that that's.

Dale Saran, Esq.: A O K, as if she had any authority to do so. She does not, you know, never has. Nobody in the DOD has that authority. But, um, that's a, that's a pretty big, uh, tip off as to how, how far afield we are now, the DOD [00:29:00] officials now, and the DOD itself. Believes that it can, uh, it can make determinations about vaccines and whether they're licensed or not.

Dale Saran, Esq.: You know, or not even vaccines, biologic products, let's call them what they are. You know, about gene, biologics.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Well, and what's interesting is that day that that memo came out, I had a conversation with my boss, a lieutenant colonel and a doctor. And I said, look, they're not the same thing. You know, go look at the vial. Does it say, um, you know, EUA on it or not? And he was about to go look at it. And then he got the email like 10 minutes later.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: With that Terry Adderham memo that says, uh, that they're interchangeable. And so he never went and looked.

Dale Saran, Esq.: Yeah. Yeah, that was, that was at the heart of the case from the beginning. And it's been, uh, maybe one of the biggest frustrations is that no one has looked at. You can't get a single judge to look at that issue. We haven't yet been able to get, um, a judge. [00:30:00] To rule on the simple issue of whether DoD officials can make interchangeability determinations for FDA regulated products?

Dale Saran, Esq.: And the answer to that, of course, is a resounding no, or, or our entire constitutional scheme is meaningless. But we're finding out that maybe, maybe that's closer to truth than not, you know, unfortunately. But hopefully, I mean,

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Well, I was going to say that I'm sure you had a chance, but probably have forgotten it already.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: The affidavit that I wrote for Todd Callender in Robert v. Austin, and how their incomplete safety data sheets make it illegal for the DOD to expose anybody to these products.

Dale Saran, Esq.: Right. And, and of course, then what came out, you know, I think it's really interesting, Sam, I mean, Again, you and I go back and have some history here on this, but, um, you know, we were able early on to, uh, to get some, some of those vials tested.[00:31:00]

Dale Saran, Esq.: And now there's all this stuff coming out about adulterated products. And, you know, there's SV40, there's simian virus 40 in there. And a lot of other stuff, plasmid, you know, DNA plasmid, all this stuff that turns out to be in these vials that would make them unquestionably adulterated products under the FDA regulations.

Dale Saran, Esq.: And now it's big news, but I'm like, I'm pretty sure you and I filed something about that pretty early on, like two years ago.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah. You know? And, and, you know, I make this very Clear and abundant that I, I abundantly clear that I think that the MRNA or the DNA capsids are all that. I think that's half or less of the problem.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I think the majority of the problem or at least half of the problem equal is the lipid nanoparticle that's in it. Because it's not fit for human use. It's for research use only. They don't even let them inject them into animals.

Dale Saran, Esq.: Yep, it's uh, yeah, I wish I could say anything, you know that I was [00:32:00] I'm surprised by any of it But I wrote a book specifically because I wasn't surprised about it, you know in anticipation I published it in 2020 because I mean you can see this coming a mile away though And there were other people like the folks at Children's Health Defense.

Dale Saran, Esq.: Um, Dr. Meryl Nass. She was the one who prescribed Uh, Ivermectin to, I think, Robert Malone, and she got her, uh, the main board of, uh, medicine, went after her license, and, and I've known Meryl since the anthrax days, and, um, you know, Meryl's a good lady and a good doctor, but we knew, and those of us who had kind of been involved with Dovie Rumsfeld, You know, it's almost like when this all started with COVID, we all, as soon as they said, yeah, we're going to, we're going to get a vaccine, we were like, oh no.

Dale Saran, Esq.: And we were all talking to each other. The writing was on the wall. You know, if you look at the top five contractors, uh, DOD contractors, you know, back in the day it was always, it's like McDonnell Douglas or Boeing, you know, it's [00:33:00] aircraft manufacturers or Raytheon, you know, weapons manufacturers, you know, have always been the biggest DOD contractors, huge numbers.

Dale Saran, Esq.: I mean, they, they get, you know. Billions and billions of dollars. And, um, uh, you look at the pharmaceutical industry while huge by comparison to like Boeing or McDonnell Douglas, or whatever, we're pretty small potatoes in the world of government contracting, you know, it's much harder to. Um, sell poison to the populace, um, on its own merit.

Dale Saran, Esq.: It's a lot easier when you can force it into them and the U. S. government buys all of it. And that's what happened to, with these, uh, you know, these gene therapy products. They were government contracts, open ended, complete liability, immunity. I mean, you know, everybody's kind of covered this in the, in public.

Dale Saran, Esq.: I don't know how, how much, you, you almost can never cover it enough. But, I mean, these things were. [00:34:00] It turned Pfizer from, you know, like, vaulted them all the way to near the top, they're now one of the top DoD contractors. And once that happens, it's basically, you're getting your immune system on a, um, you know, on a license agreement.

Dale Saran, Esq.: It's like those software license agreements, you know, this booster every six months. It's, it's your immune system on a, on a, on a license agreement that the DoD has with Pfizer. It's just, no good way that can, that can go on, you know, I don't think. For. Yeah, it's, it's, yeah, I'll just, you know, it's, it's this, it's, you know, I was talking about Meryl Nass and some of us from the anthrax days, and I'll just say that back then the pharmaceutical companies, while big, you know, the U.

Dale Saran, Esq.: S. pharmaceutical industry is huge, but individually they weren't anything compared to the likes of Raytheon or McDonnell Douglas or any of those big companies. D. O. D. contractors, but now we've turned pharmaceutical companies [00:35:00] into D. O. D. contractors. They've got their hand in that fat D. O. D. budget now, and they'll never let it go.

Dale Saran, Esq.: And so your immune system is now on a license agreement with the Department of Defense. You know that the bio warfare is now the excuse that the D. O. D. always needed to, and that sigh up on the American public, was to convince everyone to treat their closest friends and neighbors like disease vectors.

Dale Saran, Esq.: Um, and, uh, um, now you're going to get your immune system just like your software every six months. So you'll need to get it updated, you know, forever, eternally. So not me.

Dale Saran, Esq.: Well, of course, you know, it has been for a long time. I mean, the excuse that Fort Detrick has had has always been that. Well, you know, this is purely for defensive purposes and yet it was, it was clear. I'll tell you something about the anthrax letter attacks. It was clear to anybody. who knew [00:36:00] anything about anthrax, the, the bioweapon, at the time.

Dale Saran, Esq.: That there were only two labs in the world who were capable of making aerosolized, um, that powdery form of anthrax. The only two labs in the world that had that capability. It's an extremely difficult, uh, cumbersome process. And anthrax molecules are clumpy. By nature. And the only two labs that had the capability were one in Russia and one in the U.

Dale Saran, Esq.: S. at Fort Detrick. Those were the only two places the anthrax letters could have come from. And so, I mean, it was clear the day that the anthrax letters happened that it was either the Russians or it was us. You know, it either came from our lab or theirs. It was by the strain of it. It was clear very quickly that it was a us strain, that it was our own.

Dale Saran, Esq.: So, you know, the, the justification is always, Oh, we're going to, you know, we're just using it for defensive purposes in case some bad actors do this. But the reality is that it's, we're, we're the bad actors. If we weren't doing [00:37:00] this, nobody else has the capability to be doing it. It's our own people.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Okay.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: After a glitch, we didn't record, so, uh, we're gonna hit record now, and, oh man, that was a great conversation, too. So the question was, how do we switch the, oh, and you said so much in between there, I'm so sorry. Um. No, no, that's okay. How, how do we, um. So, we changed these from civil actions, to, to legal actions To get crinal prosecutions, of these people that uh, violated human rights Violated the constitution you know, aided and bedded the enemy.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Um because if you believe these are bioweapons, like I do then the these were created by an enemy To get into the U. S. troops and destroy Our military, which is proven by DMED, the Defense Military Epidemiologic Database, that our United States troops have been destroyed by this thing, and they've even changed the database.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: So, I mean, how do we get criminal prosecution of people who are treasonous? How do we get treason, you know, charges pressed?

Dale Saran, Esq.: It's such a [00:38:00] difficult, um, such a difficult question. I, I just, gentleman, the gentleman I referenced earlier who called me up, he, he, He had that same question, you know, what he wasn't sure where he fit in the lawsuit.

Dale Saran, Esq.: And I've had more people ask me that question, maybe than any other. Um, what, when does the criminal accountability start? You know, and I always, I try and, you know, I'm not going to try and duck it like I do with them. I'll, I'll be honest with you. I owe you at least that, you know, we're, we're friends. So I'll give you the.

Dale Saran, Esq.: The real answer is, um, you know, I think that, um, I look at politics now like the way I look at the Red Sox versus the Yankees. Um, and I used to be really involved in that as a Red Sox fan, but I'm kind of moved on beyond baseball now. But, um, the thing is that it looks to me like what we have right now is Team Blue, uh, has decided that it's going to be, they're going to use, friendly [00:39:00] jurisdictions, the law in Team Blue favorable jurisdictions to go after their enemies, their political enemies, i.

Dale Saran, Esq.: e. witness what's going on with former President Trump. And so if Team Red wants to, you know, remain viable, I think that they're, they're going to have to, um, consider, you know, the same. I don't think any, I don't think any federal entity is going to do anything. I would not count on the feds to investigate themselves or there's not going to be any kind of accountability for the federal government.

Dale Saran, Esq.: I think that. Ultimately, the way I see this all going is that, um, if there's going to be any, it'll have to be in, in, um, you know, team red jurisdictions, the ones that are serious. Um, and you know, supposedly Florida and panel, the grand jury. That was quite a while ago. I think over a year ago, I haven't heard anything since, you know, we had talked about sending myself and Brandon and Andy, we talked about sending them some stuff, you know, I don't know if that's going to happen, but I mean, at some point, [00:40:00] uh, you know, we're court is a substitute.

Dale Saran, Esq.: Civil suits and, and criminal suits are a substitute for vigilante justice. We use the courts so that we don't, so people aren't, you know, swinging their, the people that get them angry, uh, they're not swinging them at the end of ropes and trees. I mean, that's, that's why we have the court system, so we don't have that.

Dale Saran, Esq.: At, at some point if the court system, if the people believe that the court system is no longer a vile, viable option, they'll go back to the, the other one. And so, um, I think Team Red needs to, I mean, I think Team Red needs to keep that in mind, you know, has to, so that there's got to be, you have to have that outlet for people to get justice, or it's just a simmering burn that never goes away.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah. And if we get that here in the streets of America, I mean, I would imagine we're not like the founders of this country and we'll be more like the French Revolution where they just start lopping everyone's heads off.

Dale Saran, Esq.: Yeah, it [00:41:00] could be. I, you know, I'm, I was not a, I've never been a collapsitarian, but I'll tell you, I was at an event, Sam, where there were a lot of very successful people, wealthy people, um, and, uh, very smart people, very, very intelligent people from all vastly different walks of life.

Dale Saran, Esq.: And it was a science conference, in fact. And, uh, but in talking, I was amazed in talking to people about this and a lot of things going on in the country. How many of the people that I knew, how many of the conversations I heard were people talking about heading for the hills, man. I mean, everybody talking about, Hey, it sounded like everybody there was a prepper, you know, it was amazing.

Dale Saran, Esq.: I was at a very, I was in a very liberal place. I was in California and in an Uber liberal place in California, there were people there are very successful, intelligent, wealthy people from all over. And the conversation, Oh, he seemed to come back to people. I could hear people talking about, well, you know, [00:42:00] or.

Dale Saran, Esq.: You know, getting some raised garden beds to grow our own vegetables and, you know, everybody's talking about, um, you know, preparing for what feels sort of like an inevitable, um, retrenchment, you know, I, I think that I have the sense, I don't know about anybody else, that I, you know, the federal government can't keep spending and printing money like it's crazy and it just, it all feels like it can't go on, you know.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah, and what's interesting is, you know, we're I've seen numbers that related things to, let's say, the depression. And, and the numbers are so much worse now. But it seems like we're not feeling it because everyone's living on credit. Like, what's going to happen when these, when the credit debt comes and, and knocks, and everything collapses from that?

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: It's worse than the depression now, monetarily wise. Yeah, it can't, it can't continue. But people don't feel it because they can still buy food. Well Dale, we're, we're hitting a hard time. I know your time is, is very, um, Critical and I don't want to take more [00:43:00] time than, than you've allotted me. I thank you so much for coming on.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Where can people get your book? Where can people sign up for your lawsuit if you're still taking plaintiffs? Testing, test. Okay. Okay. Yes. Yeah, no. Sorry, we just had a crash again. Um, I want to be respectful of your time because we're coming up on the end of the hour. Um, where can people get your book?

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Where can they join your Any, any other, any other Where can they join your lawsuit?

Dale Saran, Esq.: Oh, sure. I'll tell you what I'm doing now. Yeah, the, the lawsuits, um, go to militarybackpay. com. Uh, we've got, uh, the website's up. We put updates up there. You know, it's where the info is. So, militarybackpay. com. And then, um, I'm, I'm writing on some stack under my, uh, my pseudonym, The Abject Lesson.

Dale Saran, Esq.: And I write there and, and people can find my kind of thoughts and ramblings there. And the book's on Amazon under my name. Kindle and, and, uh In hard copy. And if people reach out, I'm happy to, uh, send you a signed copy. I get those occasional requests, which [00:44:00] is always flattering and nice. But, um, Yeah, that's, uh, that's where, that's where we are in the world, bud.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Well, thank you so much for your fight. Thank you for everything that you've been doing. I know it's, um, it's not a big shop. I believe it's you and some family members. And you've been pouring a lot into this for a long time. So I, I definitely am very appreciative of that.

Dale Saran, Esq.: Yeah, it's a, it's a calling. My daughter's a paralegal.

Dale Saran, Esq.: You know, she's got a year of law school under her belt. And I've got, um, we've got Tom and, and, uh, others out there help us. But, uh, yeah, it's kind of, uh, it's a labor of love. It's one of those things that, you know, just like you, man, you know, you kind of find yourself, you just know you've found the issue, that it grabs you and you can't let go of it.

Dale Saran, Esq.: So, uh, I ran away from it for a long time, and then the good Lord dragged me back, kicking and screaming, but this is where I seem to do my best work, so that's what I'm doing.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Well, for your bravery, for your fight, for your tenacity, and God bless you in your endeavors, and [00:45:00] if there's any way I can help you, please let me know.

Dale Saran, Esq.: I will, you know, we'll, we'll talk, bud. We'll,

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: we'll be in touch again. Yes, sir. God bless.

Dale Saran, Esq.: Thanks, Sam. Out.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Just a reminder for everyone out there, in duty uniform of the day, the full armor of God, let's all make courage more contagious than fear.

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