126. Dr. Philip Buckler, The Book On Masks
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Dr. Philip Buckler: [00:00:00] When people say the science is overwhelmingly in favor of masks, they're either lying or don't know what they're talking about, because the science is overwhelming, but it's all in the opposite direction.

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Nurse Kelly: Welcome to After Hours with Dr. Sigoloff. On this podcast, you will be encouraged to question everything,

Nurse Kelly: and to have the courage to stand for the truth.

Nurse Kelly: And now, to your host, Dr. Sigoloff.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Well, thank you for joining us again. I first want to [00:02:00] give a shout out to my Patreon supporters. We've got 2Tough giving 30 a month. We have an anonymous family donor giving 20. 20 a month. We have the Plandemic Reprimando tier that gives 17. 76 a month with Ty, Charles, Tinfoil, Stanley, Dr.

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Dr. Sam Sigoloff: My next guest is, uh, he's a dentist, and he's written this book. This book is worth every second of either listening to or reading. And if you can see, this is, this is not an easy book. I almost knocked over my, um, auditory, um, my audio board just picking it up. Um, but this is, we have Dr. Philip Buckler on.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Now, sir, thank you so much for joining me. I, I'm about 75 percent weight done with this book, and I wish I would have had this. I wish you could have written it four years ago because I would have used this as evidence to never wear a mask.

Dr. Philip Buckler: Yeah, I, I wish, I wish there had been a book like that four years ago, and thank you for that very kind intro.

Dr. Philip Buckler: It's, uh, unfortunately to my, well, there are a few books out there, um, I can't, uh, but nothing, nothing like, uh, nothing quite to that extent. I was, I'm, I'm standing on the shoulders of giants when it comes to that book, and I just [00:04:00] wanted to, to make a, to make a book like that that would, well, that hopefully will prevent this from ever happening again, or at least push us more in that direction.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah, your book is actually, I've used it because I had a patient in the clinic that I work at say, Oh, I want my doctor and staff to be wearing a mask. And I was able to use the evidence in this book, um, to definitively say, you know, ma'am, sir, you may wear a mask if you would like, uh, me and my staff will not wear them as they are dangerous and harmful.

Dr. Philip Buckler: Oh, I'm so happy to hear that. That's great. I just wanted to make a handy reference so people could do stuff like that, uh, because Yeah, and what I,

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: what I love about this also is not only do you get into the science of it, um, you know, being a doctor, being a dentist, you, you can get into the science of it and, and give good, um, explanation of what's going on.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: But, because you've also raised your hand And taking an oath to defend the constitution and we can get into that portion of as much as you want. Um, you understand a [00:05:00] lot of the, the amendment rights that are going on, the rights of different rights that are being violated. And, and you get into that in the about the last half of the book.

Dr. Philip Buckler: Yeah, that, uh, that actually turned out to be the largest subsection of the book just because, uh, once I actually started reading all these court cases in the precedents, I, I realized that it's, It, it's just outrageous. What, what, what was done. Um, every, every judge that ruled that mask wearing a mask is not a form of speech was just wrong.

Dr. Philip Buckler: And that just, it, I'd say it's in a clear error of law.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: So tell us a bit of your story. You know, as much as you want to, obviously you're, uh, you have some things going on and, and any, anything you say reflects only what your opinions and no one else's. Um. But what got you to this point to start writing this book?

Dr. Philip Buckler: Oh, thank you. Yes. Well, I, I don't really go into my own personal story in the book just because I wanted to keep the focus [00:06:00] off me and on the issues. But as far as, as far as my own status goes, uh, I am, uh, I'm currently a dentist in the army. And, uh, I, uh, until I finished listening to your podcast a couple episodes a few weeks ago, I thought it was the only person in the army, the only medical provider who'd, uh, said no to masks for reasons of, of conscience ultimately, and sincerely held religious belief.

Dr. Philip Buckler: But I, I essentially, you know, like a lot of the soldiers who, who had to, um, wear a mask, I, I kind of towed the line and did what I had to, to stay out of trouble. But it, I would argue that I was, that I was eventually convicted by the Holy spirit gradually and persistently, that this was not something that I should be doing.

Dr. Philip Buckler: And Part of that was because as I did more and more research for the book and learned about it and learned everything there was to know about masks, my moral duty in respect to wearing, not wearing them, I think actually changed [00:07:00] based on my level of knowledge. So I'm, I'm just one of the thousands of people.

Dr. Philip Buckler: Soldiers that kind of went through that process and got denied and then, uh, went through the elimination paperwork on that. And some of those outcomes were, were good. And some of them, uh, some of them were not so good. And, uh, my, my own elimination board, uh, I believe it was at least two out of the three that chose to the selected to retain, but it was, uh, it was, it was rough.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah. It's interesting how all of these, these fights in the military, maybe not all of them, but the overwhelming majority of them go up to this line of what you and I would probably consider. Injury, but just short of what the law or the court system seems to consider as injury I don't know if it seems like them retaining you as a way to say well, we didn't hurt him.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: We didn't harm him We didn't do anything wrong to him. We just you know made him not see patients for you know, however long for me It was almost two years. I didn't see a patient and yeah, that is harmful. That makes me lose my [00:08:00] skills

Dr. Philip Buckler: You could feel your skills decomposing as, as you go on. And then you're not seeing patients is used against you in your officer evaluation report.

Dr. Philip Buckler: At least it wasn't in the one that I got, that got me to the elimination board. So it was kind of a no win situation, but you've, you've been through all that.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Well, so there are some things from the book that I really wanted to ask you about, um, some of the studies that you talked about, cause, uh, the Solomon Ash study.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And if you could get into that a bit,

Dr. Philip Buckler: Oh, yeah. So, um, I actually really enjoyed writing the psychology section. I thought that was as important if not. Well, I don't want to say it was more important than the than the physical science as far as infection control and side effects, but I'd say it was at least equally important just because.

Dr. Philip Buckler: All of the classic behavioral psychology studies by Solomon Ash, the group conformity studies, where even if you just do [00:09:00] passive social pressure, you will get a large number of people to conform to doing something masks were a perfect illustration of that. And when you tack on additional social pressure or punitive type pressure.

Dr. Philip Buckler: Pressure as in like you are a bad citizen. If you don't wear a mask, well, that just ups the compliance. And so Solomon Asch did some of the classic early studies on that, where he had people look at a series of lines and in, but the trick, the catch was they had to say, Uh, whether these lines matched out loud out of a multiple choice question and everyone else in the, uh, kind of in the little study group was an accomplice who were pre predetermined to give the wrong answer at several certain points.

Dr. Philip Buckler: So what ash was looking at was whether, whether, um, The, the study subjects themselves would go with the group or whether they would kind of stick to what their, their own eyes were telling them and what they knew to be true, their own visual perception that they relied on on a daily basis just for judging distance and walking around without bumping [00:10:00] into things, how strong that group influence was and, uh, The majority of people did succumb in in at least a few cases, and some just some their perceptions actually warped to perceive the non reality that the group was advocating.

Dr. Philip Buckler: And so that was that was one thing I go into in the book. I talk about Stanley Milgram's experiments where how far people go in obedience to authority. Um, my own experience suggests that Stanley Milgram was right, even as more pessimistic predictions on that, and that's, that's true. That matches my own internal experience as well.

Dr. Philip Buckler: And then Philip Zimbardo, the author of the Stanford Prison Experiment, he, he kind of, uh, developed a lot of Milgram's experiments and wanted to see, like, how, how social roles and, um, kind of defined social influences can make, uh, otherwise good people or normally good people do, do really bad things. And Zimbardo was actually a consultant for the army when.

Dr. Philip Buckler: If you, [00:11:00] if you read his book, the Lucifer effect, uh, he was actually a consultant for the army after, after the Abu Ghraib, um, scandal went down. So he talks about some, some of the social factors that influenced and got soldiers to do the things they did in those cases. And based on my own experiences with masks, I don't necessarily know that I would have done any better than them.

Dr. Philip Buckler: To be honest, it's, uh, my, my own experiences left me very, um, Very, uh, kind of cynical, or at least with a much more accurate view of, of what I most likely would have done when faced with a lot of different historical situations, and a lot of those evaluations are not flattering. So it's, I really enjoyed reading about that stuff recreationally before all this went down, so I put it into the book because it was just watching these principles illustrated in live time, and I wasn't the only one who was, who was tracking these either.

Dr. Philip Buckler: Um, I, I cite that, um, that. Um, uh, the Twitter [00:12:00] wit, um, who's him, who goes by the handle bad cat, um, who, who posted that excellent illustration with a Venn diagram showing COVID policy at the central intersection of all the ash, Milgram and Zimbardo studies, and then got banned from Twitter for saying that.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I remember in, when I was shortly out of residency, I, I was able to watch that, that movie that was about Milgram and his experiment. And I feel like when I was watching that, I was kind of like looking back on that experience. I'm, I'm wondering if that was what helped me make it through this and make the stand that I knew was right, rather than.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: succumbing to those peer pressures because it, you know, that it wasn't just a guy in a white coat standing there with the clipboard that pressured you and me and Kyle Robbins and all the people that have resisted this so far.

Dr. Philip Buckler: Yeah. It was, it was much more than that. It was a bunch of [00:13:00] people with higher ranks were saying, we will punish you if you don't do this.

Dr. Philip Buckler: So it's, yeah. I mean, if, if you look at, if you look at the, the power of, of people acting in their own, in their own spheres of influence to enforce things like that, it, it gets incredible. Even even early experiments, just looking at professors and students found that, um, you can get, you can get students to shock innocent puppies repeatedly, electrically with genuine shocks, uh, just because the professor says so, even though the student's grades doesn't don't depend on it.

Dr. Philip Buckler: That's another one of the studies I cite in the book.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah. And. Yeah. And

Dr. Philip Buckler: yeah, it's

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: those people don't just have ranks, but they affect your pay. They can, you know, for like you, me, and for Dr. Kyle Robbins, they could start a process that could take away licensures to where it would financially destroy you and, and what you built for your entire life to be able to provide for your family.

Dr. Philip Buckler: Yeah. And they can also sit and they can also sick a bunch of bureaucrats to comb through all of [00:14:00] your medical records and second guess every medical decision that you've made. And that's one of the way, that's one of the ways that you, that you shut up providers who are either right or disagreeing. Yeah.

Dr. Philip Buckler: You just, you, you run them through the process as punishment.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: That is a interesting thing that you just mentioned that almost like you knew that that was happening to me, um, as that is still happening to me. I had a peer review and I. I asked for a, an appeal to that in November of 22, and I will find, and I'm outta the army now.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Mm-Hmm, , August of 23, I got outta the Army, and this April of 22 or 24, so two years afterwards, I'll finally get my appeal.

Dr. Philip Buckler: Oh my goodness. That's, if I hadn't, if I hadn't observed everything over the last three years, I would find that almost unbelievable. But now I'm just, that's par for the course. That's just the way it works.

Dr. Philip Buckler: And it's, it, it, it, it'll drive you nuts.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And what's even more, I don't know how you handled

Dr. Philip Buckler: it, to be [00:15:00] honest, I was terrified

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: of going through that experience. What's even more infuriating is this entire thing. I have proof that it's, it's been done illegally and improperly and it never should have happened.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: It's fruit of the poisonous vine and, and it never should have started, let alone get to a point where they're trying to revoke privileges that I don't have. And now they want to, it's just,

Dr. Philip Buckler: Oh yeah, it's enough about

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: me.

Dr. Philip Buckler: It broke privileges that you don't have. So they can retroactively revoke privileges and that can carry on later.

Dr. Philip Buckler: That's, that's new territory. Or it should be new territory, but

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: there was one thing you mentioned about the ACE receptors and wearing a mask that just, I really wanted to have you explain more and have the public be able to hear this, that you talked about dead space. You talked about CO2 and you talked about ACE receptors.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Do you does that ring a bell for you?

Dr. Philip Buckler: Oh, yeah, that was the, that was almost a, um, I think that was a footnote, um, or one of the, or one of the sub paragraphs in the science, in the science [00:16:00] section where, uh, where there was a laboratory study that looked at, uh, Low oxygen or high CO2 conditions that increased the, at least in the laboratory, those increased the number of receptors whereby the ACE2 receptors that SARS CoV 2 could bind to the respiratory epithelial cells.

Dr. Philip Buckler: And so while I mean, it's a laboratory study and I'm always kind of cautious about those because so many bad laboratory studies were used to justify masking. And I cover a lot of those in the book too, especially the ones that CDC cited, but looking at this. But the point is when you look at studies like this, where it's like, okay, well, if these cells are being subjected to high CO2, low oxygen conditions, they're expressing these ACE2 receptors more.

Dr. Philip Buckler: That's just creating more binding sites for SARS, uh, for SARS. potential binding sites for SARS CoV 2. So if there was an objective evaluation of all, even the laboratory based evidence, that alone should have been enough to preclude forcing everyone to wear a mask because this evidence was out there too.[00:17:00]

Dr. Philip Buckler: And that pushed, you know, that kind of mitigated against the idea that having everyone wear a mask was, was a good idea.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah. And then, and then you go into, I don't remember if you do this first or after, but you talk about how. So it seemed time and time and time again that the areas that wore masks had higher rates of outbreak.

Dr. Philip Buckler: Yeah, there was, the main bottom line was no statistically significant difference, but when you looked at the, when you like really drilled down into the data, um, The areas that wore masks did have either had no statistically significant difference or a slightly higher, uh, higher, uh, incidence of SARS CoV 2.

Dr. Philip Buckler: I mean, one of the, one of the most egregious examples of that was how, um, the, I want to say it was the Kansas public health domain published, uh, published in the CDC's non peer reviewed MMWR. Uh, publication, they tried to claim that masks were [00:18:00] associated with a decreased incidence or decreased acceleration in the rate of SARS CoV 2.

Dr. Philip Buckler: But when you actually looked at the infection rate of SARS CoV 2 in the non masked Kansas counties versus the mask mandate counties, you saw that the mask mandate counties. The non mask mandate counties actually started their study period with a higher incidence of covid. Um, it was about almost double the, uh, the mass mandate counties.

Dr. Philip Buckler: And then over the period of time that the study was conducted, the, the non masked counties actually had a slower rate of acceleration of SARS, Covey to and. They start and they finish the study with a lower overall rate of SARS CoV 2. So it, it's um, and I have the diagrams and all, all that and in that section of the book when I talk about that study, but that was just, that was just one of those examples.

Dr. Philip Buckler: And that's, and that was just one of the ones where you even had something resembling a control group. And if you look at, say, the great, uh, the work of Dr. Hogue, I quote, um, I quote a lot of [00:19:00] her studies because she did some excellent kind of reexaminations of some of the studies that the CDC was touting, saying, Oh, look, masks in schools work and we, you know, we analyzed all these and it's like, wait a minute, well, why'd you exclude all these other school districts in the state and elsewhere?

Dr. Philip Buckler: And when she pulled, um, when she and her colleagues pulled, uh, so about seven times the amount of data. In that the CDC was pulling and actually looked at it over a broader period of time. They saw that the CDC was really cherry picking the data. So the mask mandate schools actually had a higher, a slightly higher incidence of SARS CoV 2 again, not a statistically significant difference when you, when you actually looked at it, it was pushing in the direction of masks, having a slightly higher incidence of COVID.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And I guess one of my contributions, I'm

Dr. Philip Buckler: sorry, go ahead.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: It makes sense with what

Dr. Philip Buckler: you explained about the ACE receptors.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Oh, yeah.

Dr. Philip Buckler: Oh, good. Yeah. And that was honestly, I think my primary science [00:20:00] contribution in the book was just to cover some of the, that little section on why masks don't work. That was just pulling together all, all of the kind of secondary effects of masks as and why would we potentially see an effect in the laboratory, but see the, this total non effect in the real world over and over and over again for the last hundred plus years.

Dr. Philip Buckler: And so that. That little section right there is listing some of the possible secondary effects that would neutralize or even, you know, completely counterbalance any, any potential filtration benefits, which I'm still personally skeptical of. Uh, that's, that was my, my contribution as far as listing all of those.

Dr. Philip Buckler: Cause oftentimes people won't believe you that masks don't work unless you can explain, well, why don't they work?

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And I don't think you got into this. I heard a, um, an engineer getting into how N95s work. The mass that's supposed to block 95 percent of particles, uh, that are, uh, what, 0. 5 microns and larger.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And, and it uses this, [00:21:00] these van der Waals forces. So if you imagine a mesh, but the mesh isn't small enough to catch everything. They have a slight negative charge. And when something flies past it, it sticks to the negative charge. And, which sounds great. It's, it's good to stop stuff from coming in. But not so much to stop stuff from coming out because it has to move away from your face, or you have to have a valve in there to allow it to come the air to come out.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And then the issue is, is once you've been wearing it for a short period of time, the moisture from your breath will get that mask wet and neutralize that negative charge. And now it's no better than a surgical mask.

Dr. Philip Buckler: Yeah. And I mean, as, as I'm sure you're aware, Well aware, every comparison between surgical masks and N95s has found no statistically significant difference in terms of efficacy for preventing any sort of respiratory disease.

Dr. Philip Buckler: And that includes the one that was done in multiple hospitals over a period of years that was partially funded by the CDC. [00:22:00]

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Just a simple family medicine doctor's perspective on this is if you, um, look at how large of a particle that an N95 can stop. Thank you The smallest thing it can stop is, uh, I believe it's 0.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: 3 microns. It doesn't even stop smoke, uh, but the virus is 0. 15 microns. It's half the size. And so I think you use this analogy of using a chain link fence to keep the ocean back. And that's exactly what it is.

Dr. Philip Buckler: Yeah. And in the, in the book, I had like a one page diagram where I actually did a scale mock up of the virus size comparison next to a 5 mm, 5 micrometer and 30 micrometer in 95 pore sizes.

Dr. Philip Buckler: And the virus is basically a pixel on the page that you can barely see compared to a very clear sized circle. So I, I thought that was, that was worth illustrating. And, um, Like you mentioned, the electrostatic charge filtration function sounds good in [00:23:00] theory, but that was, I mean, that was tested at least in a couple of laboratory studies, and they found that it didn't really make a big difference as far as viruses were concerned.

Dr. Philip Buckler: And then when you look at other lab studies, um, Showing that the, that SARS CoV 2 remained viable on, um, on mask material longer than, longer than almost any other surface. Well, that alone could, could counteract any filtration benefits. So, it's, I mean, the science, when people say the science is overwhelmingly in favor of masks, they're either lying or don't know what they're talking about.

Dr. Philip Buckler: Because the science is overwhelming, but it's all in the opposite direction.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah, as a dentist, and I don't know, You know, I understand there's been some things that have been happening since then, um, as far as seeing patients. Um, do you, have you seen, or have you had concerns about, yeah, have you had concerns or seen people mouth breathing a lot more, contributing to dental caries and other dental disease?

Dr. Philip Buckler: I personally [00:24:00] haven't observed that a whole lot. I mean, there's not a, there's not a lot of, um, Kind of anatomical issues that good self care won't, uh, won't help as far as dental goes, at least as far as the basics are concerned. Uh, I have, I have heard of that and I've seen it reported, although I personally haven't encountered a whole lot of it, if any.

Dr. Philip Buckler: But I wouldn't, I wouldn't want to rule it out. I mean, I kind of mentioned it in the book, but I, I hadn't really been able to verify it, so I didn't. Uh, it was kind of a mention in passing sort of thing. As far as the book was concerned, I tried to stick to stuff that was in published scientific sources that even, even people who disagreed with me would be hard pressed to, to discount.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of information that you couldn't put in there. Otherwise I could have

Dr. Philip Buckler: really expanded the bibliography.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah, I'm sure there's plenty of things that you couldn't put in there just because you're limited to only being this size. [00:25:00]

Dr. Philip Buckler: Yeah, I mean, I'm, I mean, you already, as you saw, it is still a fairly intimidating size as it is. So I tried to make it as accessible as possible. And there's just something about seeing it in, in print that kind of emphasizes the, the sheer volume.

Dr. Philip Buckler: But, you know, it's, it's about a 17 hour audio book and, um, I'm. Uh, if, if anyone's concerned about cost or anything like that, just email me at Philip Buckler at the book on masks. com and I'll send you a, a digital PDF with all the live hyperlinks because I, I hyperlink each one of the sources. I want to, I want people to be able to check every, everything in that book.

Dr. Philip Buckler: I don't want them to take my word for anything,

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: but I also want to encourage people. Go buy it. I'm actually

Dr. Philip Buckler: rather proud of that PDF.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Please go buy it. Give him appreciate that. Give him the money.

Dr. Philip Buckler: Oh, Yeah, all proceeds will go directly towards funding my, my, um, my legal actions as far as, um, trying to ensure that this never happens again and hopefully establish a precedent that benefits all, all service members and [00:26:00] Americans.

Dr. Philip Buckler: I know that's a long shot, but it's, it's a shot that's worth taking.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Are you able to talk about some of your, your legal endeavors? So that's where the

Dr. Philip Buckler: proceeds are going.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: We, we share a common thread as we, we found out recently that we're using the same lawyer and, uh, which is, which is great because my lawyer is amazing and he's one of the best ones that I've, I've ever come across.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Uh, but are you able to, um, talk about any of the cases that you're involved in?

Dr. Philip Buckler: Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, there matters of public records, so people can just go look them up. Um, I'm currently suing Lloyd Austin and company in the, uh, Western District of Texas over the masking issue. Specifically for violations of the First Amendment Religious Freedom Restoration Act and the Administrative Procedure Act and in my complaint, I'm I'm alleging that, you know, compulsory masking is a violation of First Amendment speech and also First Amendment free [00:27:00] exercise.

Dr. Philip Buckler: And in, in the book, I articulate a lot of those speech arguments under the first amendment in a way that I don't think has actually been articulated in most of the lawsuits and certainly not in the, in the rulings dismissing those cases, because there's a lot of first amendment issues surrounding masks that just Are not covered in a lot of these cases, all the judges just kind of stuck there, stuck their ears or their fingers in their ears and said, la, la, la, I can't hear you or I refuse to hear you.

Dr. Philip Buckler: Therefore, you're not saying anything. But the fact of the matter is that under legal precedent wearing a mask. Or taking one off, depending on the context is a form of symbolic speech, but it's and so that alone should have been enough to trigger strict scrutiny under the First Amendment, but it's it's not just that it's you have a First Amendment right to not associate with speech with which you disagree and compulsory masking, uh, going beyond forcing you simply to associate with speech with which you disagree.

Dr. Philip Buckler: It actually overwrites It overwrites the speech that you want to [00:28:00] project. It forces you to project the message of whoever's trying to force you to wear a mask. And you also have a first amendment right to receive speech. So everyone's first amendment right to receive the disagreeing speech, especially of healthcare providers who were refusing to wear masks or objected to wear masks, everyone's first amendment rights.

Dr. Philip Buckler: And that. Respect were violated. And I don't think I've seen any lawsuits that alleged that. And finally, facial expressions are a form of pure speech. And that's never been ruled on in court, but that's just clearly obvious. That's one of the people communicate by facial expressions clearly and articulately from the, from the time that they're babies.

Dr. Philip Buckler: It's before they even learned written or vocal speech other than just, you know, basic vocalizations. So the fact that this, that any judge could even seriously contemplate trying to dismiss a First Amendment mass case just blows my mind. And I'll give some of them the benefit of the doubt because I don't think a lot of these issues were articulated as thoroughly as they could be.

Dr. Philip Buckler: You're [00:29:00] kind of limited in what you can do in an initial complaint. So those are some of the, um, those are some of the grounds that I'm, that I'm, that I'm arguing in my first amendment suit. And then for me personally, there's the religious freedom restoration act, which, which says that the government may not, uh, the government may not, uh, impose, burden a person's sincerely held religious practices, even from a rule of general applicability without satisfying strict scrutiny.

Dr. Philip Buckler: And a lot of these mass cases under first amendment grounds were like, Oh, a lot of the judges would just assert that the mask rules were neutral and generally applicable and therefore pass first amendment scrutiny. Uh, that was incorrect, but that's what they would assert. And, uh, in the religious freedom restoration act goes a step beyond that.

Dr. Philip Buckler: Uh, it was passed in response to another military case, uh, in the 1980s, Where, uh, the military kicked out, um, essentially a Jewish rabbi for wearing a yarmulke against regulations. And [00:30:00] that I read that case, and it's, uh, the dissent was the best part of that case. It was just, but unfortunately, that particular ruling got us where we are now.

Dr. Philip Buckler: But partially in response to that case, Congress passed the Religious Freedom Restoration Act to provide a more robust protection for people's religious rights under the First Amendment and kind of restore that strict scrutiny test. So in the case of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, that's oftentimes what in, I mean, you know, this is, uh, in some ways probably even better than I do, as far as the vaccine cases go, uh, that was what actually got the cases passed the motions to dismiss.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I was going to ask, um, I haven't finished your book. I'm about to. 25 percent left. But did you get into any of the EUA and the law, the emergency use authorization and masking in particular?

Dr. Philip Buckler: I touched on that, but in the footnotes. So that wouldn't show up in the audio book. Um, that it was, I felt that other people had done a really good job of covering [00:31:00] that.

Dr. Philip Buckler: So I didn't hit it as hard as I otherwise could, but it's, it's in the footnotes. Yeah. Good question. But the, the interesting thing about that is, you're absolutely right. They were. EUAs and I linked to those EUA documents too,

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: and it was illegal to tell a service member to participate in any EUA product from the start before all this happened.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Mm-Hmm, . And it's 10 USC 1107 alpha. So masking testing and shots have all been covered under EUA. So even though people have been trying to get First Amendment coverage and religious coverage for these issues, it was already illegal to begin with.

Dr. Philip Buckler: Oh, yeah. And, and that was just ignored. That was one of the many frustrations. All this stuff just got ignored and it's, you can see how other bad things in history kind of developed and snowballed from there when all these essential principles and even the procedural protections just got ignored. If I hadn't lived through [00:32:00] it, I wouldn't believe it,

Dr. Philip Buckler: but yeah, that was, that was a good point to bring up.

Dr. Philip Buckler: And I know that's your particular area of expertise.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yes, sir. I, um, my case is, is more about fourth amendment and whistleblower protection act violations. Um, there was a first amendment issue when my commander told me that I cannot talk about COVID 19 vaccine or virus during the duty day or in uniform. Uh, because as, as a physician to be able to properly consent people, uh, or even discuss treatments for COVID.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I have to be able to discuss the vaccine and, and the virus.

Dr. Philip Buckler: Yeah. I, I heard you talking about that and I was, I was just blown away, but not in a good way that that was [00:33:00] shocking, but not surprising after ever, after everything we've went through. So it's, that's, that just had to be so aggravating. I

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: think the most shocking thing of all was when, uh, in the investigate investigation that I endured, they, put in there that I was handing out constitute pocket constitutions as if I was some radical trying to turn people against the United States.

Dr. Philip Buckler: What? That's that makes, that makes zero sense. And also a nice job on those. I've got one next to my desk too. I'm just glancing up at it. Um, but yeah, that's how on earth would the, how would passing out Copies of the document that both of us swore to uphold possibly radicalized people.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah, it's, that's how far we've come as military officers that [00:34:00] handing these out when you were sitting there trying to, uh, not be coerced into getting a shot is something that's bad.

Dr. Philip Buckler: Yeah, it's, it's the times we live in. But God bless you for doing that. I, I was afraid of going through the experience that you had and that Dr. Robbins had, that was, that was my big, that was, it took me too long to do the right thing. Part of that was waiting on the bureaucracy to actually reject the, to reject the religious accommodation request, because anyone with two brain cells to rub together in 2021 could tell none of the armed, none of the armed services were acting in good faith when it came to those.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And it took me entirely too long. And, you know, against my better judgment, I continued to wear a mask. And, and what's even more bothersome [00:35:00] is that There are claims that I would take off my mask when I was seeing patients at my previous duty station in Alaska. And they're actually bringing that against me, saying, Oh, he's incompetent because he disobeyed hospital policy that he had to wear a mask.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And the most upsetting part is I actually did wear a mask, and I never took it off in front of a patient so that no one could ever make that argument.

Dr. Philip Buckler: That policy was bad to begin with. As far as I'm concerned, and that's if it's your judgment as a physician that that that that would not have been a risk to the patient. I don't I think that's your prerogative as a physician to to make. I don't think that the hospital policy should override that. It's just this dogmatic application of hospital policy drives me nuts when it comes to stuff like that, because it's people who don't know what they're talking about making that policy when

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Huachuca and still active duty.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Um, I had to go get my teeth cleaned by the at the dental facility they have. [00:36:00] And the OIC of the dentist came out. He's a lieutenant colonel. And he said, you got to wear a mask. And I said, sir, You know, they don't work. I know they don't work. You also are now aware because I'm about to tell you that they're illegal for you to tell me to wear a mask under 10 USC 1107 alpha.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And he said, well, it's it's clinic policy. I said, that may be very well true, but your policy cannot supersede federal code. Let me think about this. He walks off about two minutes later, the hygienist comes back and takes me back and no mask. And there we go. And then about two weeks later, no more masking policy.

Dr. Philip Buckler: Well, I'm sorry we didn't run into each other in person. By that time, I wasn't in that clinic, but I would have loved to run into another major like you.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: The lieutenant colonel was not too happy.

Dr. Philip Buckler: Well, I mean, the dental corps split over like every other corps.[00:37:00]

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: What other things from the book do you really want to get out for the public to hear that you think are the most important issues?

Dr. Philip Buckler: Oh, man, well, uh, One of my concerns now is just to try not to intimidate people with, with the size. It was really meant to be modular. It's more like four or five books that just happened to be kind of juxtaposed and, um, kind of, they are presented linearly.

Dr. Philip Buckler: So, so it does read best, um, from, from cover to cover, but you can really jump around as, as needed to the different sections, whether if you want to start in the science section or the psychology section or the philosophy section or the law section. Um, the, I think, I think you'll find the, the appendix where I detail my own, um, religious beliefs on, on those that finally got me to say no, um, even when I had had something more substantial than getting kicked out of Walmart by a policeman on the line, because that did happen for [00:38:00] refusing to wear a mask at one point, um, yeah, they caught me at the, at the checkout and wouldn't let me check out.

Dr. Philip Buckler: So then I just left and went to another Walmart and got all my groceries there, thereby spreading COVID according to their mentality. But as, as far as, um, what it it's really supposed to cover, um, what, whatever anyone is, is interested in, as far as this goes, I mean, the, the science was the most, the science was what everyone was arguing about because that's the easiest thing to argue about.

Dr. Philip Buckler: It's, it's kind of the tip of the iceberg, uh, so to speak, the, the real underlying issues like the, the beliefs that people have that, you know, if it. If it works, we can force everyone to do it. Um, flawed beliefs like that. Um, those tended not to get addressed as directly. You could see some argument. I, I, I cite some of the um, peripheral um, arguments because those were taking place.

Dr. Philip Buckler: But the, the philosophical arguments, the psychology of it, I really did enjoy going into that. That's definitely worth going into, if only to kind of arm yourself so you can see the same techniques [00:39:00] being used against you later on. Because I really think my recreational reading prior to 2020, uh, like your, your own, uh, having gone over the Milgram experiments, uh, that, that does kind of help prepare you so you can see when this stuff is coming and it, it might not be enough on its own to keep you from complying or falling for it, but it helps.

Dr. Philip Buckler: And, uh, and the, for me. Having all this knowledge, uh, all, all of the empirical science, psychology, all that wasn't enough to get me to finally say, no, it was the religious beliefs that I detail in the appendix because I was, because I was afraid it's I, I get it when, when people had, um, And it wasn't that I was afraid of COVID.

Dr. Philip Buckler: I was afraid of having the hammer dropped on me. And those fears were not entirely groundless, even though, even though I had a better experience than than the newer Dr. Robbins,

Dr. Philip Buckler: you know, when, when people, I, [00:40:00] um, The bottom line is I get it, um, when, when people, uh, complied and that might've been their moral duty at that point. Uh, I think, I think God laid very individualized moral duties and he called some people to stand up for this, um, particularly aggressively and other people, it was, it was permissible to comply and that they had other, uh, other things they needed to do.

Dr. Philip Buckler: Yeah.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Everybody had their own place in their own fight and their own place that God called them to be. And, you know, I was. either, either way for the, for the fight that I was put into, but I feel like I was groomed for this position. Um, through my whole life, God has, has made me to be someone who will.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: reason to, when I see something and go for it, whether it's, you know, that's harmed me in the past, you know, go in the wrong direction. But in this particular instance, it was a time such as this. Um, I was, so when I was at my previous duty station in Alaska, this is probably mid, [00:41:00] 20, maybe early 21, and I was having a discussion with another doctor and there was all these videos coming out by army doctor saying why I got the shot.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: This is why I got the shot because I love my family and I don't want my grandma to die and all this stupid stuff. And so, uh, I wasn't talking to my wife. Oh my

Dr. Philip Buckler: goodness.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I was talking to my wife and I said, you know, I want to make a video as to, uh, why I didn't get the shot to encourage people to not get it.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And, and she told me, you know, Don't do that. You will be taken out of patient care and I was talking with another doctor colleague of mine and and he said, well, I told him that, you know, we're, we're almost in Venezuela and he said, no, this isn't almost Venezuela. We are in Venezuela because if we weren't in Venezuela, You would be able to make that video and not have to be, not to concern yourself with being kicked out of patient care for the rest of your life.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And, and it was, it was striking back then. I thought, nah, this guy's wrong. He's wrong. We're not [00:42:00] there yet. Boy, was he right? Boy, howdy, was he right?

Dr. Philip Buckler: Yeah, I, yeah, it's one of those cases where it's like, I want someone to be wrong, but not because I want them to be wrong. It's just, man, I hear you. And he was an army doctor.

Dr. Philip Buckler: That was one of the things cited in my book.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And he got the shot. He was all for the shot. And it was interesting, too. He said, Yeah, we get one and we get two, but if we ever get, you know, three or we get them every, every three months, it will be gene therapy at that point. And they can keep changing it a little bit over time and be able to change the human genetics even if we're getting them that often.

Dr. Philip Buckler: It was gene therapy from shot number one. That's the, well, man, but that's another, that's another example of how you get,

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: he denied that it was gene therapy to begin with, but he said, well, if we're doing it every three or six months, then, then it's gene therapy.

Dr. Philip Buckler: Well, um, if, [00:43:00] Hopefully he stopped getting them now.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah,

Dr. Philip Buckler: but yeah, it's, it's like that. It's the gradual successive steps. It's like, okay, well, if this goes one more step crazy, one more crazy step further, that's when I'll stand up. Uh, it's, yeah, that's, uh, you, you find yourself in a, in a place where you've, you should have stood up a long time ago.

Dr. Philip Buckler: Real fast.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Exactly.

Dr. Philip Buckler: And yeah, but I was so excited to hear about you and your podcast and, and other, other similar, um, doctors. Cause it's, it's also kind of an isolating experience. You think you're the only one. And that was the case where I was really happy to find out that I was wrong.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah. I've, I've been pleasantly surprised anytime I found any medical, any medical professional, but even more so a military medical professional like Dr.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: P Chambers. Um, And regrettably, he did get the shot, but he's he stood against it since the beginning. He's helped [00:44:00] thousands of Texas National Guardsmen from from getting the shot by giving them attic as adequate informed consent as we can give early on, got connected with Dr Teresa Long, who made a very public statement and tried to ground almost all of the Air Corps in the army.

Dr. Philip Buckler: Didn't go over well with her superiors, I have no doubt. No, it didn't. But, but God bless her for that.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And then Kyle Robbins, who stood up for, for night wearing the mask, and he was removed from patient care. Yeah. And he even went so far as to say, I will see patients outside, and that wasn't good enough.

Dr. Philip Buckler: Mm hmm. Yeah, I, I believe it because it's, it's, it wasn't about the science and that, um, I listened to your podcast with him and I mean, he even had Mr.

Dr. Philip Buckler: Petty, the industrial hygienist testify on, on his behalf and I'm sure, uh, I'm sure they raised the, the EUA [00:45:00] arguments and, and all that just fell on deaf ears. It was because it wasn't it wasn't about the science or the or the practicality or or it wasn't like whoever was calling the shots didn't care whether it resulted in half the half the patients who would normally be seen in a time period not getting the scene because I crunched those numbers.

Dr. Philip Buckler: It was it was it was about control and compliance

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: compliance

Dr. Philip Buckler: and worse. Yeah.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: In the last few minutes here, what do you want to leave us with? What, what do you, and then, uh, once you're, once you say that, I want you to give us a good place where we can find where to get this book. I'll put the link that you tell us, I'll put it down on the bottom. I want to encourage everyone who's listening to get this.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Put this on your shelf. Um, if you have this in paper copy, no one can ever change it. It's in hard copy. It's in your house. You can [00:46:00] use it as a reference. You can use it as, as exciting, easy list reading or listening. But if it's on digital format, so I buy audio books, but I always have a hard copy to keep in my house so that someday my kids can read it, no matter what happens to digital devices.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: If someone goes into my phone and, and steals it out of my phone, or someone goes into my phone and puts a, YouTube album, a YouTube album on my phone, they can't take this out of my possession unless they actually come to my home and take it, which will be a very challenging endeavor for them.

Dr. Philip Buckler: Yeah, I'd be interested to see if that thing would stop a 22 caliber bullet.

Dr. Philip Buckler: Might, might be worth doing a trial with that. That was my copy. Final thoughts. Um, Well, uh, I mean, just thank you for the opportunity to talk about it because, um, I want to, my, my overriding objective is to get the information to as many hands as possible and to try to ensure that this never happens again.

Dr. Philip Buckler: So I don't want, um, like, like I said, just email me at philip buckler at the book on masks dot com. That's the website, the [00:47:00] book on masks dot com. Uh, and, and if, if, It's a problem. I'll shoot you the the PDF the pub and and links to the audio books. But if if you do buy a copy, then great. I appreciate that too.

Dr. Philip Buckler: Because it supports my legal efforts to hopefully, hopefully create a precedent that benefits every American. And like I said, I know these are long shots, but you work with what you have. And it's been a wild ride, but it's one that I, it's one that my main regret is not doing it sooner and harder. At the same point in time, it's also been very tiring.

Dr. Philip Buckler: So, but it's, it's been good, good and good in the sense of, uh, Your faith really kind of grows and you, you don't, um, you don't regret it.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah. For us as a family, we, we thought at times it was too hard, but, um, yeah, there [00:48:00] was times where we thought we wouldn't get a paycheck and, and by the grace of God, we never went a month without a paycheck, you know, they threatened to take away my extra bonus for being a doctor because you're going to lose your privileges.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Didn't lose my privileges, you know, then, then they threatened, you know, then I. I get out and I don't have a job, then I find a job, then I get fired from that civilian job for going against shots when they knew when they hired me that I was against the shots. And in that same week, God gave me another opportunity where I can work in this place and it will be a future where I can work forever.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And the guy who owns it is a Christian and he believes the same as I do.

Dr. Philip Buckler: That's wonderful. Wow. And that answered a question that I had about, um, about where you were at right now. So, I mean, I'm so happy to hear that. Yeah. In

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: fact, they, when I brought them my CV, they said, This is the D. O. we've been looking for because, uh, the man who owns the clinic is a D.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: O. as well. [00:49:00]

Dr. Philip Buckler: Oh, that's great. Yeah. I've, I've started to develop some positive stereotypes about DOs throughout all this because disproportionate, a disproportionate, a slightly larger proportion of DOs has been good on this than, than MDs. So go

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: find yourself a good deal.

Dr. Philip Buckler: So take that for what, for what you will.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah.

Dr. Philip Buckler: Yes. DOs are great.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Well, sir, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you so much for your stand. Thank you for, for joining us. Taking the time to write this, this is, this is a reference that I will keep on my, on my desk for when patients come in and say, Well you can't, you gotta be wearing a mask. No. No, take the time to look at the information, read it, it's here.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And, and you'll understand why I am so confident that I don't need to wear a mask and how it's harmful to me and to everyone around me.

Dr. Philip Buckler: And eventually, I have vague plans for a second edition in five or six years. We'll see, because I'll need to add a few more [00:50:00] studies, but it's big enough already. But yeah, thank you.

Dr. Philip Buckler: There was hardly a session of that book that did not begin with prayer. As far as writing it goes.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Well, I'm honored and blessed to have you on the show. And I'm honored to find other men, other Christians, to be standing up alongside. That I can stand next to. And we can lock arms and, and stop the evil and assault it rather than be assaulted by it.

Dr. Philip Buckler: The honor is mine. Thank you for having me. I appreciate you. Keep doing the great work on your end. I'm looking forward to more of your podcast episodes.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Thank you.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Just a reminder for everyone out there, in duty uniform of the day, the full armor of God, let's all make courage more contagious than fear.[00:51:00]

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