145. Chewing the fat with Renee Shove
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Renee Shove, RN: [00:00:00] The first two to three weeks, my pain was almost gone, like totally controllable. This pain that I'd had for five years that I couldn't control was almost gone. I was laying in bed one night and I looked over at my husband and I was like, Oh my gosh, my feet aren't burning. I'm like tears rolling down my face.

Renee Shove, RN: My feet aren't burning. I decided at that point that I was all in. I would eat ribeye every single day for the rest of my life if, if that's all it takes to not have pain. Ribeyes are so much cheaper than the marijuana and all of the drugs that I've been on. You know, my Rituximab treatments were 10, 000 a treatment.

Renee Shove, RN: My IVIG was 100, 000 for a week treatment. I mean, luckily insurance paid for most of it, but the whole point is that I was costing that much money.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Doesn't dinner sound great as it's cooking? This dinner is from Riverbend Ranch, which always provides prime or high choice, has never been given hormones, never been given antibiotics, never been given mRNA vaccines.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: It's raised in the USA. [00:01:00] It's processed in the USA. In fact, it's fully vertically integrated, which means that they own the cow. It gives birth to the calf. It's raised on their fields and then taken to their butcher and then shipped to you. And if we compare What we can buy from Riverbend Ranch to four other major state companies that sell bundles that have rib eyes and other meat in it, it can be as much as 184 to 59 less expensive.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: It's a great price value and it's a delicious piece of meat. Check out MyCleanBeef.com/afterhours. That's MyCleanBeef.com/afterhours MyCleanBeef.com/afterhours.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: If you've noticed, I've been wearing this t shirt for a few episodes now, I have them available on eBay. [00:02:00] Check out the links below to get your size.

Nurse Kelly: Welcome to After Hours with Dr. Sigoloff. On this podcast, you'll be encouraged to question everything

Nurse Kelly: and to have the courage to stand for the truth.

Nurse Kelly: And now to your host, Dr. Sigoloff.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Well, thank you for joining me again. I want to. First, give a shout out to all of my Patreon subscribers. We have 2Tough giving 30 a month. We have an anonymous family donor giving 20. 20 a month. I have the Plandemic Reprimando tier at 17. 76 a month with Ty, Charles, Stanley, Dr.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Anna, Frank, Brian, Shell, Brantley, Gary, and Janine. I have Kevin and Patton Bev giving 10 a month. And then there's the Refined Not Burned [00:03:00] tier at 5 a month with Linda, Emmy, Joe, Rebecca, Marcus, Elizabeth, Dawn, Ken, Mary, Amanda, Sandy. There, Addison Mulder is giving 3 a month. Frank is giving 1. 50. And then the, Courage is contagious tier.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: At one dollar a month, we have Jay, SpezNasty, Durrell, Susan, BB King, Caleb, and Sharon. I also want to encourage everyone to check out MyCleanBeef. com. It is some of the best beef I've ever had in my life. That's MyCleanBeef. com slash after hours. So my next guest, she's going to be talking about her life changing experience.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And this has to do with dietary change. And I want to preface this with, often I talk about dietary change in the clinic, and I have one of two major responses. Wow, doc, I've never heard of that before. Or, that's crazy, I can't do that. And, and various levels in between. Um, but Renee, um, tell us what happened with you when you decided to change your diet and change your eating habits [00:04:00] and how you have a new life because of that.

Renee Shove, RN: So I guess I would have to go back to the beginning of my autoimmune disease diagnoses. Back in 2010, I was diagnosed with idiopathic gastroparesis and then in 2019, I was diagnosed with chronic inflammatory demyelinating polyneuropathy, which is basically, my immune system is eating my myelin sheaths of my nerves, a lot like MS.

Renee Shove, RN: But at the arms and leg level instead of the brain level. Um, so two autoimmune diseases plus migraines. I've had depression my entire life from the time I was, I had my first suicide attempt when I was in my early teens. And then again in my 20s. And, um, so, All of that and, um, did I say chronic migraines?

Renee Shove, RN: There's a whole bunch of stuff. So I have all this stuff compounded up. Severe anxiety, depression. And I've been a nurse for 21 years. [00:05:00] So, um, that adds to the stress and the anxiety. I got to 2019 and right before the pandemic started and life got crazy at work, I got sick. I one day woke up and was fine and worked out and went to work and I had no problems.

Renee Shove, RN: I came home and I went to peel shrimp and I couldn't peel my shrimp. My hands didn't work. I couldn't, there was no fine motor skills left in my hands. And so in the matter of eight hours, I went from lifting weights to not having that. So. They started working me up for Guillain Barré, which would make sense because that's, you know, the severe weakness and the paralysis, but it didn't, I started in my hands, not in my feet.

Renee Shove, RN: So Guillain Barré always starts in the feet, works its way up. So I didn't have, so it was not Guillain Barré. So it took months of them to figure out my diagnosis. I went through a whole bunch. I had everything MRI'd. I know absolutely from top to bottom what I look like on the inside. Um, and they [00:06:00] couldn't figure it out.

Renee Shove, RN: And I finally. After seeing two rheumatologist, I had another neurologist say, let's just do another panel of blood. And they found the antibodies in my blood. And so he, uh, he didn't even call me. He emailed me and gave me my diagnosis over email, um, and said, this is the treatment we have for it. We're going to start you on high dose IVIG.

Renee Shove, RN: If you have any questions, let me know. Um, you know, being a nurse, I don't get things explained to me like I should. Okay. You know, I don't know everything, you know, we don't always know everything. So I didn't really get a whole lot explained to me, but I started high dose IVIG in March of 2020 and that was five days a week.

Renee Shove, RN: And it, it is brutal. IVIG is immunoglobulin and it's not an easy, you know, you're thousands of people donate to every bottle of the immunoglobulin. And so I reacted to it, I'd have pre medications. [00:07:00] But halfway through that first week, I could walk again because I had completely lost all the strength on the left side of my body and I hadn't been able to walk very well without assistance.

Renee Shove, RN: So I was able to walk again. So it worked. And I. Off and on did high dose IVIG for, um, a couple of years and then it stopped working. And so I ended up going on Rituximab, which is a monoclonal antibody, uh, that was made for cancer, not for autoimmune disease, but they've been using it in autoimmune disease.

Renee Shove, RN: And the Rituximab goes in and kills all my B cells, which means that I have no immune system. So this began, I started to feel a little bit better, but then I started. Getting COVID and pneumonia and the flu and then COVID and then pneumonia, and I just went down this path of being sick all the time. And it wasn't a way to live either.

Renee Shove, RN: I was already, um, at this point, I'm on [00:08:00] Gagapentin at the full dose. I'm on duloxetine at the full dose and nortriptyline at the full dose. It's all of it trying to kill the nerve pain because my disease causes severe neuropathy and burning and pain. I got to a point where I just couldn't do it anymore.

Renee Shove, RN: Um, I was at probably the lowest point in my life and I told my husband, I think I, you know, my youngest was getting ready to graduate high school. He was, um, this was in, this was, Late February early March of this year and I was like, you know when Elijah graduates high school I don't know that I want to continue to do this anymore Like I I don't know that I can even go on I'm done.

Renee Shove, RN: Like the pain is awful. I can't control it I was smoking marijuana from the minute I got off work to the minute I went to bed hoping that that would help with the pain like it would nothing touch the pain anymore I mean I would lay it in bed crying I would get in the shower and hope that the heat would help in the shower and I would just You know, it just was, it was awful.

Renee Shove, RN: [00:09:00] And we went to Texas. In late February for my son's graduation from bootcamp and we lived in Hawaii. So Hawaii, Texas, long airplane flight, um, got home from Texas and with COVID again, for like the, I don't know how many times. And you know, it was not as bad as I'd almost died from it last year. So this one wasn't as bad, but I was still really sick.

Renee Shove, RN: So I was laying on the couch and my husband's on his way to work. And he was like, please just look at the carnivore, look at carnivore. And I was like, I've been telling him for months, he'd been bugging me for months. I was like, there's no way in the world a human is only supposed to eat meat. Like there's no way that I can eat just meat and live like that.

Renee Shove, RN: I don't get it. I've eaten a salad every single day of my entire adult life for lunch. Like I cannot do it. And so I finally said, you know what, I'll watch your videos. I'm doing nothing else anyway, laying on the couch sick. So I turned [00:10:00] on YouTube and I started watching videos and I came across people like Carrie man and Michaela Peterson and Dr.

Renee Shove, RN: Jordan Peterson and Dr. Chafee and Dr. Barry and all these, all these people who are talking about the healing and the autoimmune diseases that have been healed. And you know, Michaela Peterson healed rotator arthritis. And so I told my husband, I texted him, I'm like, Hey, if you don't want to be a carnivore, you better tell me because I'm done.

Renee Shove, RN: Like I'm all in. And so we spent the next like week, week and a half trying to get rid of all the food in our house that was not carnivore. And finally I was like, let's just donate it. I want to start like, I'm, I need, we need to do this. So we started on March 20th of this year. Um, by the time we started, that cane behind me was a normal part of my everyday life.

Renee Shove, RN: I couldn't walk anywhere without it because of the weakness on the left side of my body. I was falling if I didn't have it and that's why I had to start using it. My pain was uncontrollable. I was completely [00:11:00] depressed. I was ready to say, Hey, you know what? When Elijah goes to college, I'm done. Like I've raised my kids.

Renee Shove, RN: I don't need to be a part of this anymore. And within the first two to three weeks, my pain was almost gone. Like totally controllable. This pain that I'd had for five years that I couldn't control was almost gone. Um, my nerves were, I Yes, my I was laying in bed one night and I looked over at my husband and I was like, oh my gosh My feet aren't burning.

Renee Shove, RN: I'm like tears rolling down my face. My feet aren't burning like this something So, I mean it sounds simple to people but it's not and I haven't been able to control this pain And so I decided at that point that I was all in. I would eat a ribeye every single day for the rest of my life if, if that's all it takes to not have pain.

Renee Shove, RN: Ribeyes are so much cheaper than the marijuana and all of the drugs that I've been on. You know, my Rituximab treatments were 10, 000 a treatment. My IVIG was 100, [00:12:00] 000 for a week treatment. I mean, luckily insurance paid for most of it, but the whole point is that I was costing that much money. And so, That happened and then I noticed we, we had already, by the time that we started carnivore, we had already pulled the trigger that we were leaving Hawaii and moving to Arizona.

Renee Shove, RN: Um, we had that because at that point, Rituximab was the final treatment for my disease. Like if, If it didn't work, then I needed to get into clinical trials, and the clinical trials for my disease are happening at St. Joe's in Phoenix at Barrow's Neurological Institute. So I knew I, alright Mayo, I knew I needed to get closer.

Renee Shove, RN: So we decided that we would, we were moving here anyway. So we started looking at houses and stuff, and the first trip that we flew out here, um, I'm scared to death of flying. Scared to death like two milligrams of Xanax to get on a plane and you know how much Xanax that is a

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: lot of Xanax

Renee Shove, RN: But that's what it took to get me on a plane [00:13:00] And so the first time we flew at her look at houses.

Renee Shove, RN: I didn't require any medication at all Wow, I got on the plane. No panic attack. No, nothing. It was It was amazing. So that was another, like, that was the biggest thing was that anxiety, but my depression at this point is gone too. I am no longer like I, even the, even the underlying like low level depression I'd had my whole life was gone, everything.

Renee Shove, RN: And I like at that point, how do you argue with that? Um, and so I've, so in, August, we sent my son to college, my youngest, and September, we moved here to Arizona. And by the end of September, I was no longer using my cane at all.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Wow.

Renee Shove, RN: Um.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And when did we meet? When? I can't remember when we met.

Renee Shove, RN: We met like probably the first couple weeks of October because we set up care with you right away.

Renee Shove, RN: Yeah. Um, [00:14:00] so, I mean, all that happened in the matter of, short period of time. And if I look at, um, if I look at how long I had this disease, I have had it for over five years and it only took, I'm on nine months. I've only been car for nine months only. And I've, Um, almost reversed it. So I'll tell you my really good news.

Renee Shove, RN: I haven't got to tell you yet. My antibodies are negative in my body. He drew that, my neurologist drew them and I just saw him this week and he told me I was in remission and that he didn't need to see me but once a year.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Wow. What a blessing. What a blessing. Just nine months and you've healed, you're beginning to heal everything.

Renee Shove, RN: Yeah. And My neurologist told, had told me, um, back in, I think the reason I got to my lowest point was because he had told me that within the next five years I was going to lose my ability to walk completely. [00:15:00]

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: You need to call him back and let him know.

Renee Shove, RN: Oh. When I told him I wanted to try the carnivore diet, he told me, you're a nurse and you know better than this and that is not a well balanced diet.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Then you definitely need to call him back and let him know. Send him this video and let him see the difference.

Renee Shove, RN: I think that that's the biggest frustrating part is like even my neurologist now who I love and I have no, like he has not once looked at me like I was growing two heads. And when I, you know, and every time I see him, I want to back off of things.

Renee Shove, RN: So I'm, I, I stopped the deloxity in the nortriptyline within the first couple of months of carnivore. And my gabapentin was 3, 600 milligrams a day and I'm down to 2, 100 a day. Wow. Um, you, you know, the, it's a very slow weaning process because I've been on it for so long. So I'm only going down 300 every two weeks, but I'm down to 2, 100 from 3, 600.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Wow. That's a [00:16:00] miracle.

Renee Shove, RN: Why does my neurologist not look at it like it's a miracle? He just kind of shakes his head when I say, you know, he keeps asking me, you're sure you don't want your Rituximab? Are you sure you're okay on going down on these meds? And then the other day, even though he told me, Hey, it looks like, you know, so I had an EMG done on, um, Tuesday this week or Monday.

Renee Shove, RN: No, we were there Monday in Tucson and my EMG was completely normal.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And so what an EMG is, is they stick a needle in your hand or in your foot, and they look at the speed of conduction of your nerves and they can determine by how fast it conducts, how long your nerve is, is it normal? Is it abnormal? And you're telling me that it came back normal.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: That's incredible. That is. And

Renee Shove, RN: they, they did the electrodes and they did the needles and he did the needle on my, he did the needle hand, elbow and upper arm. And then he did a needle on my ankle and needle on my calf and needle on my thigh. Wow. And all of that came back normal. And he only did it on my left side because that's my weak side.[00:17:00]

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And that was normal. And so that would show, you know, decreased velocities if there was still a problem, but your strength is back and you don't have any decreased velocities. That's amazing.

Renee Shove, RN: And I still have pain. Like it's not, I'm not a hundred percent and it could take years for my nerves to completely regenerate.

Renee Shove, RN: I'm very well aware of that. That, that, that, that it is a long, it took me a long time to get here. It's not going to be overnight to get me back. I am starting occupational therapy to try to work on the fine motor skills in my hands. I mean, I'm, I'm doing everything that I can do on my end to speed it up because I'm very impatient.

Renee Shove, RN: Um, but I, it took me a long time to get here, so it'll take me a long time to get back. Um, it's just amazing. Like it makes me, it just makes me so happy. I don't even, I don't even know how to describe What it's like to have something that [00:18:00] you think, A, this is going to be something I'll live with for the rest of my life.

Renee Shove, RN: I mean, my neurologist in Hawaii told me, make sure you buy a house that's wheelchair accessible,

Renee Shove, RN: and now I don't even use my cane anymore.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: So I have to ask you a question about the gastroparesis. So for everybody to, um, gastroparesis is where your stomach basically doesn't work. It's, it's what ozempic functionally does to people and that's what helps them lose weight is it stops the motility of the stomach.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Now, Did they ever determine that that was like an initial symptom of this autoimmune disorder?

Renee Shove, RN: No, actually, they think that I was exposed to the Epstein Barr virus. Um, and that caused the idiopathic gastroparesis. So myself and another nurse I worked with at the hospital, um, we've worked in the same department and we both got it around the same time.

Renee Shove, RN: And they said that's a, it's a very rare thing that two people in the same department, [00:19:00] let alone the same place should ever get it. So they think that we were probably working with a patient and got exposed to a virus that just was opportunistic and went in and, and got it. The nerve, but the gastroparesis, I got very, very, very sick.

Renee Shove, RN: I was hospitalized for malnutrition and dehydration. Um, I couldn't keep anything down. It was completely awful. You know, your stomach, when your stomach doesn't do this anymore and it just does this, nothing moves. Um, the really good thing is I get no bloating anymore and I get no pain anymore with eating just red meat.

Renee Shove, RN: I mean, I, and I have to be honest, I eat mostly just beef, bacon, butter, and eggs. Um, very little dairy and I, when I got diagnosed, my gastroenterologist told me, um, eat only white food, eat only simple ultra processed foods because they're the easiest things for your stomach to, to get through your stomach.

Renee Shove, RN: No more vegetables, no more [00:20:00] nuts and no more red meat.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Wow. I mean, he's almost there. No more vegetables, no more nuts, but

Renee Shove, RN: right, but not quite. So I always thought that the red meat was the problem. Like when we would eat a normal meal and ate meat and vegetables and a carb, I always thought the meat was the problem.

Renee Shove, RN: And now that I only eat meat, meat is not the problem. I have no problem digesting meat.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And that's what most people think, is they, they eat a meal with, let's say, potatoes, uh, broccoli, and then a piece of overcooked meat, and they're like, Oh, is the meat that gave, that made me feel so heavy and so full? No, it's, it's not.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Because you, someone your size could probably eat like a 20 ounce ribeye and feel comfortable and, and not over full, not like after Thanksgiving, how people feel. It's not the turkey at Thanksgiving that makes you feel terrible. It is all the sides, it's the breads, it's the, the potatoes, it's all these other things, all the bad seed oils that are in.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Most ultra processed, or all ultra processed foods [00:21:00] that harm our bodies, but the meat gets the blame. It's, it's amazing how there's this dichotomy that's just completely wrong. Like, I'm even watching old Scrubs episodes because I enjoy it, I think it's silly and it's funny. But, I love it. They make meat the bad guy.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: You know, some guy has kidney failure and they're like, Oh, don't eat meat or his liver failure. Don't eat meat. Oh, you, you know, you ate all this meat. Now you're, you're feeling sick. It's like that, that's not reality.

Renee Shove, RN: But it's everything that goes along with the meat. I can, I can eat so much more food now and have no problems with it.

Renee Shove, RN: I never get that turkey Thanksgiving stuffed filling ever. No matter what size of steak I just finished eating. I mean, none of it makes me feel like that. So,

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: so let me ask you some nuts and bolts questions about when you first started carnivore. So, you know, there, there's carnivore, which is kind of a, a, the [00:22:00] widest net that you can cast, where it's basically, if it's from an animal, you eat it.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: There are some people that do what they call lion diet. I think Michaela Peterson may have coined that term, but it's, it's red meat. It's animals that chew the cud, basically. It's. You know, like your cow, sheep, goat, red meat type things, only that salt and water. So how extreme did you go? And have you opened that up?

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: You said you're now doing eggs and butter and some other things.

Renee Shove, RN: Oh, I went all in. I, I did lion. I was beef, water, salt for two months, 60 days. I gave up my coffee. I gave it, I I went all in. I thought, okay, I'm a nurse. So we're all type a, we're all a hundred percent or nothing. And so I was like, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this.

Renee Shove, RN: Like, and so I did beef water, salt for the first 90 days or 60 days. And then I added in some butter, added in some eggs, um, [00:23:00] discovered eggs actually bothered me, took eggs back out. Um, bacon didn't bother me. So, um, I was like, I ended up and then I started adding some, okay. I got really, really, really bad diarrhea.

Renee Shove, RN: Like I went from 143 pounds to 118 pounds in the first month of carnivore. Um, I was not fat adapted, child of the eighties. I ate margin and nothing with fat in it. We cut all the fat off. I grew up in a family, I grew up in a hunting family. So we ate mostly elk and deer growing up and there's no fat on elk and deer.

Renee Shove, RN: Um, and my mom was like scared of fat because that's what the seventies and eighties did to people. And so I did not, I don't even think that I ate my first piece of like real Beef until I was a teenager. Um, and we never had real butter. So I went [00:24:00] from that mindset to carnivore and, um, I was not fat adapted.

Renee Shove, RN: My gallbladder, it had no idea what I was doing to it. It's like, I can't do this. So I dropped way too much weight way fast because I just couldn't keep anything in. I would eat and instantly be in the bathroom. Um, and it didn't matter whether it was hard fat or rendered fat or, you know, anything. It just, it happened.

Renee Shove, RN: So I ended up taking a lipase supplement and that Instantly within days changed how I was, how I was reacting to the fat and it helped. I only took that for like a couple of weeks and that was it. And I didn't need it again. Um, but it was what I needed to get over that hump. So when I got to my lowest, I had one of the Carver doctors.

Renee Shove, RN: He was like, I think you need to start eating a little bit of cheese. Like you need to start eating something A to bind you up a little bit, but B, you need the calories. Like you're not getting enough from the meat because you lost so much weight. So that was when I [00:25:00] started to add some stuff back in and I realized eggs were bothering me, but we moved here and my neighbor down the street, I trade him.

Renee Shove, RN: Okay. I still make sourdough bread, but not for me. I, I, I have this amazing starter. So I make it and I trade aid. So I get fresh eggs, he gets bread. Um, and so I've discovered that I can eat fresh eggs. I just can't eat eggs from the store. That was

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: one thing I was going to ask you is, uh, specifically, is there a difference between store bought eggs and Um, fresh farm, fresh eggs, because here where we in this, this area we live in, there's, there's a lot of people that have, I have chickens and it's, it's easy to get ahold of fresh eggs here on the country.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: If

Renee Shove, RN: you will, Biggest difference in the world going from store bought eggs to fresh eggs. And we bought a cow, a half a cow from, um, the, um, butcher in Wilcox. And That makes, it makes it, [00:26:00] I think it makes a difference. However, having said that I got a lot of the healing just off of buying meat at Costco. I mean, that's where in Hawaii, that's where we bought our meat was at Costco.

Renee Shove, RN: So I would, I would never ever tell somebody don't do this because you can't afford like, because you can't afford to buy the best meat in the whole world. You can do this on any meat. It just may take longer. So I did, I did lion. I've ended at, I cut dairy out again recently because I started, um, my pants stopped fitting.

Renee Shove, RN: I've got, I, I stopped weighing myself. I was like, I don't want to know what I weigh. I decided I had an eating disorder. My, you know, there was a lot of fat shaming growing up and a lot of, a lot of really, really fat attention to how much I weighed. And so I, Decided that I wasn't gonna weigh myself anymore.

Renee Shove, RN: But if my pants stop fitting, I have an issue. Well, my pants stop fitting. So I have an issue. So I've cut dairy back down to almost nothing. Um, and I'm going to see if I've got some inflammatory process or something going on. So [00:27:00] something is still, something is bothering me right now. So it's really awesome though, how you learn how to listen to your body.

Renee Shove, RN: Like I would have never been able to do this before and listen to my body saying, Hey, wait, you don't want to eat that.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Well, you brought up a couple of things that I really want to hone in on also is like people are afraid, Oh, if I eat fat, I'm going to get fat. And it seems like you're demonstrating that it's almost impossible to gain weight.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: When you're eating mostly animals, fat, um, certainly adding cheese in there is a different story. And I think it's Anthony Chafee who says, Dr. Chafee, who says cheese should be a condiment, not the main meal. Otherwise you will gain weight. Um, but it's interesting how, when you eat that much fat, you burn fat and people don't quite realize that when you eat fat, you burn fat.

Renee Shove, RN: Well, and my go to snack to the day is pemmican and I make it. We make it ourselves, um, and I do, [00:28:00] mine is 60, 70 percent fat and 30 percent beef. I mean, I do high levels of fat because it's the fat that's going to heal my nerves. That's what, that's what it's going to heal me. So, yeah. I snack on fat all day.

Renee Shove, RN: I can't do the butter out of the fridge and just snack on it. Like Bella does, um, bless her heart. I can't do it, but I discovered I like Pemmican. And so we just make up really high fat Pemmican. Can

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: you explain what Pemmican is for people that don't know?

Renee Shove, RN: Yeah, so it is basically it, it's, it has a shelf life of like forever, um, but it's just like rendered fat beef tallow and we mix it with beef flour.

Renee Shove, RN: We make our own beef flour. We just take, um, ground beef and, um, that we make ourselves, you know, like I like grind a chuck steak or something. And then I just. We dehydrate it until it gets to be crispy like potato chips and put it in the, so I've repurposed everything in my kitchen. My [00:29:00] Vitamix now makes my beef flour instead of my smoothies.

Renee Shove, RN: And so we just make it into a flour and then mix it with the rendered fat. And then let it set up and it, you know, we put it in the fridge and it turns into like, I just put it on a cookie sheet and it turns into like bark that, you know, you can just, you know, take some off and eat it. Um, of like, uh, an example of a commercial one would be the carnivore bar, which I do have some of, and I take them with me if I'm going for a long day somewhere and I need to.

Renee Shove, RN: I think I need to eat somewhere in there, but pemmican has been around for a gazillion years. It's been a go to survival staple for people for a long time.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: The Native Americans used to make it so they could store food for long periods of time while they would travel.

Renee Shove, RN: And I have a video on my YouTube channel that I made on how to make pemmican,

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: our style.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: That's great. And then one other thing that I want to draw attention to especially was you mentioned, Oh, um, you don't need to buy. You know, [00:30:00] grass fed, grass finished, this fancy meats and all that, and, and that is so true. Try to let nothing stop you from trying carnivore. You know, the, the cheapest piece of ground beef from Walmart is better than almost anything else in Walmart.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And, and so just, just get into it. Just try it. Just, just try it. Give it a chance, and the difference between the cheapest ground beef and the most expensive grass fed granite finished, however you want to, you know, fancy meat, it's minimal difference. It might taste a little better if it's grass finished, but it also has a little less fat in it typically, and so it's not as tender and it's not as delicious.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: So, I mean, there are some drawbacks to that. Um, but the most important thing is get the inflammatory foods out of the diet. And that's where the red meat comes in.

Renee Shove, RN: Yep, and I would have to, I actually am opposite. I don't like grass finished. Uh, I can, I, I taste that grass in it. I don't, my husband says I'm insane, but I taste it and I don't like grass finished.

Renee Shove, RN: I know instantly the minute I take a bite of a steak, whether it's grass finished or [00:31:00] grain finished. And so, um, where we bought our cow, they do grass fed, grain finished. And so that works really well for me because at least they're, they're finishing it with grain. So it takes a little bit of that grass fed out of it, but I agree with you.

Renee Shove, RN: Get rid of the seed oils, get rid of the sugar and get rid of the vegetables that are causing the inflammation. Having said that I I'm trying. I am convincing my family to all become carnivores. And it's, uh, my mom's the only one that's done it so far. My mom's in hospice for scleroderma. She has crest, um, we're trying to get her pain under control.

Renee Shove, RN: So she has been a carnivore for one month today. Um, and so, and she had to, she's been drinking Pepsi for 60 years, like three or four of them a day, and she had to quit that, so that was huge. Um, and. Um, I think that she's starting to feel a little bit better. She's got a long ways to go. She's been in and out of hospice for 15 [00:32:00] years with Crest.

Renee Shove, RN: So, We're just looking for pain control for her. Um, but my dad, I'm trying to convince him he had a, he had a stroke from a clogged carotid a couple years ago, and I'm trying to convince him to go carnivore, but his cardiologist has got him so scared on red meat and fat, like he thinks that that's gonna be the death of him.

Renee Shove, RN: Um, but I told him, I said, Dad, even if you just go keto, like high fat keto, you don't have to get rid of your vegetables, because he's like, oh, what do I live without my vegetables? Always. Um, I'm on the firm believer, I'm on the Dr. Chaffee train, vegetables are going to kill you.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yes.

Renee Shove, RN: But. 100%.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: They are trying to kill you to prevent you from eating them.

Renee Shove, RN: Right. But if I, if that has to be the stepping stone to get somebody to go, then that's a great stepping stone to get them to go because it's their seed oils. and that sugar that is going to be the death of everybody.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And

Renee Shove, RN: a way

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: to kind of temper that with patients is I tell them, look, if you can't do carnivore, it's [00:33:00] not for everybody.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I think everybody, everybody's physiology can handle it and they will thrive. However, everybody can't do it because Well, we've been sold things that are food that shouldn't be food and it's been so prevalent in society for the past, you know, 60, 70 years that we think things are food that are not. And if you can just get back to whole foods, things that don't have more than five ingredients, things that don't have artificial dyes in it, things that don't have seed oils, you will see a significant improvement.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Not as much as if you did carnivore, and you don't have to do lion. That, that is kind of extreme. I don't do lion. I still drink coffee every day. Um, would I benefit from not drinking coffee? I probably would. But it's not something I'm willing to give up yet. And I'm using that plant poison as a medicine to help keep me engaged throughout the day.

Renee Shove, RN: Right, and that, I would say coffee is the only thing that I've left. Like, and I gave it up for 60 days. I went 60 days without it. And then when I added it back in, it didn't make a difference in how I felt. It didn't make a difference in my [00:34:00] progress that I was making. So I was like, you know what? I just went to a more quality coffee.

Renee Shove, RN: Then when I was drinking before, make sure that it was being sourced from, you know, you, you start to pay a little more attention to those kinds of things, but yeah, I'm not, I didn't want to give up my coffee. Um, and that's okay. I'm, uh, you know, I, Dr. Barry has a whole video on it and he says, drink coffee.

Renee Shove, RN: We, he says, I've done studies both ways and I don't think that it affects people like, you know, there are some people that maybe cardiac wise shouldn't drink coffee or something, but.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And also you bring up a great point is. Make the best of a bad choice. So, I know you're not eating the sourdough, but if someone has a choice between store bought bread and sourdough, and you're going to eat bread either way, well, I'd rather you make the best of that bad choice and eat the sourdough.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I'd rather you eat flour that didn't have glyphosate sprayed on it. If you're going to eat, like, if I can't prevent you from eating, if I can't convince you to not eat noodles, Okay, get noodles, buy them imported from Italy because they [00:35:00] don't spray glyphosate on them and they process the noodles, uh, the grain differently so that it does, it's not as harmful to your body.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: You know, make the best of that bad choice to help your body out.

Renee Shove, RN: And that's probably why I didn't stop baking sourdough because my kids weren't willing to give up bread. And so I said, well, if you're going to eat bread, then I'm going to make it your bread. Like I'd rather you eat my bread than a store bought bread.

Renee Shove, RN: So, um, and, and, If my neighbor down the street is going to eat bread, I'd rather him eat my bread than something he goes and buys in the store. And he could trade me chicken eggs for it. I'm okay with that.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah. And you know, there's plenty of people who I have this, this garden. I don't know what to do with all these vegetables.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Okay. Give them to the guy who likes the vegetables and trade him for something that you can use.

Renee Shove, RN: Right. And I was a huge, I mean, I had an amazing vegetable garden back in Hawaii. I grew all my own vegetables and I, I, I did that for years. Um, and when I left Hawaii and we sold our house, my garden vegetable was a weed garden and I [00:36:00] apologized to the new owners and I said, I'm sorry, I've stopped eating vegetables.

Renee Shove, RN: And I just let it go to the wayside because. I, I put a lot of time and effort into growing them and I don't need to anymore. But I, I thought, okay, so I, the one thing I didn't tell you was I was actually a vegan, um, from not 2018. I only did it for like a year, a little over a year, 2018 to. about when I got sick in 2019.

Renee Shove, RN: Um, we had just started like adding a little bit of fish back in. But other than that, we had been vegan and that I had gone on this journey of diets. First off, I've been a yo yo dieter my whole entire life, but I had gone on this journey of diets after my gastroparesis diagnosis, trying to find what worked.

Renee Shove, RN: And, um, I, we, we did the whole 30 and we did Mediterranean, we did pescetarian, and we just, you know, we kept going through the diets and Then I watched a documentary and thought, Oh, we should not eat cows. We shouldn't eat meat. [00:37:00] Let's go vegan. And, um, I have my picture of my cow behind me to remind me that I do like to eat cows and I'm grateful for them, but we went vegan.

Renee Shove, RN: And in the year that we went vegan, um, And my husband, my husband had slowly over those years had gained a little bit of weight here and there. But the year we went vegan, he developed depression, which he had never had his entire life. He gained so much weight that he got up to the two hundreds and he's only five foot seven.

Renee Shove, RN: He got type two diabetes. He went on metformin. Wow. And, um, all that happened. And then as We were going the last five years. I just noticed his depression was worse and worse and he didn't want to get off the couch and he didn't want to go do anything like work would take it out of him. He would go to work.

Renee Shove, RN: He works in the OR, he'd go to work for eight hours in an OR and then he would be done and he would just sit on the couch the rest of the day. And You know, part of [00:38:00] me was like, well, maybe his depression is because he has a sick wife. I mean, nobody signs up for this. Um, but, um, within, within a couple of months of being on carnivore, he was off the metformin, his hemoglobin A1C is normal and his depression is gone.

Renee Shove, RN: And he has so much more energy. And he'll tell you, um, if I called him in here, he would tell you his Biggest thing is when he gets up in the morning, he's up. Like there's no, uh, I have to go find a cup of coffee or, oh, I have to wake up. Like he is up and awake and alert. And, um, I, so I broke him and carnivore fixed him.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And I think it's, it's a great story to hear how you went from You, you've done the whole gambit of everything. You went from the most extreme to one side to the other side. And I love to hear when people who were, you know, vegetarian or vegan, and then they learned about carnivore. And they jump all in and all of their issues resolved.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: [00:39:00] It's, it's an absolute miracle.

Renee Shove, RN: Yes, it is. Um, I would have never ever guessed that the vegetable that the eating of complete and you know, the other thing about being vegan is that you end up eating a lot of ultra processed foods. It is really hard to be vegan and not end up in ultra processed foods because it is, it is a full time job to cook vegan, like literally a full time job to cook vegan.

Renee Shove, RN: Um, between the time you're processing all your vegetables, you're figuring out, you know, I tried to keep it as exciting as possible 'cause here I am making my poor husband who has always told me he's a predator because his eyes are in the front and he has incisors and he is always meant to eat meat.

Renee Shove, RN: And here I am trying to make him be vegan. So I have to find things that are good, you know, that, you know, you'd keep looking. And then we were eating the beyond meat. Okay? I cannot believe that I made my husband eat chemical. Be processed meat. That's not even meat.

Renee Shove, RN: [00:40:00] Um, so it's just amazing. It's it all I did was, you know, you go back to me and I absolutely love me. And, you know, I'm struggling right now with trying to figure out, uh, I've been, oh, mad, I've been only eating one meal a day for about six months and I'm having a problem with that. I'm, uh, I'm gaining weight.

Renee Shove, RN: I'm not eating enough food. I think I only eat like one eight ounce. to 10 ounce ribeye a day. That's not enough food. I've decided that I'm starving myself, where I am right back into that. You know, uh, calories are not the best way to describe anything, but it's the only thing I can say we have, right? And so I'm in a cow, I'm not eating enough.

Renee Shove, RN: So I'm starting, I went back to eating two to three times a day and making myself eat more meat because I'm not eating enough. Um, and, but the amazing thing is that you learn how to listen to your body. And I knew my [00:41:00] body was telling me, Hey, wait. You know, you're not eating enough food. So my hormones are getting balanced again.

Renee Shove, RN: My hot flashes are going away since I've started eating more. So it's not like you just get there and all of a sudden you're like, Whoa, the whole world is amazing. And I don't have to worry about anything ever again. You still have a presence.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah. You still have to work on it.

Renee Shove, RN: It's a journey.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I have another patient who is, uh, menopausal, getting hot, had hot flashes, went on keto, so not even carnivore, but went on keto, um, got rid of all the ultra processed stuff, hot flashes stopped, right?

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Came off of it for about three days, had some, you know, bumps in the road, hot flashes came back, got back on the keto, cleaned up the diet, all the hot flashes went away, which I didn't know that was a, that could do that.

Renee Shove, RN: Right. I find, I, I was having, I had gotten the hot flashes sort of the daytime hot flashes I'd gotten under [00:42:00] control by how much fat I was eating.

Renee Shove, RN: I could tell if I hadn't eaten enough fat because I would have more hot flashes, but the night hot flashes I hadn't gotten to go away. And I went off my estrogen replacement, um, early on in carnivore because I did, I wanted to go in as clean as I could and see what would happen with my body. And I didn't, I decided that I wasn't going to do the estrogen replacement.

Renee Shove, RN: Um, But I hadn't gotten the night flashes, the, the night ones to go away. And the minute I started eating two to three meals again, like I wait, it was about three weeks ago, two weeks ago, I started doing that by now I'm none, like I'm sleeping through the night again. I have zero hot flashes in the night.

Renee Shove, RN: That's amazing. So just not getting enough, just not getting enough food. So that's the wonderful thing though, is I don't have to worry about how many calories I'm eating. I can eat as much as I want in a day of meat. Because my body is going to know when to stop.[00:43:00]

Renee Shove, RN: It's amazing.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: So, you're also, this has changed your life so much that, um, I believe we've talked about this before, um, you're kind of changing career paths. Tell us about that. I am.

Renee Shove, RN: So, I don't know, I don't, I don't think I could ever go back to allopathic medicine. Like, honestly, I don't, in the hospital, we're not healing people.

Renee Shove, RN: We're just throwing medication at them and sending them on their way. And it's like a revolving circle and they just keep coming back and keep coming back and keep coming back. And there's not that, you know, that we're not looking for the root cause of their disease and we're not healing them. So I decided what I, I medically retired from my job in Hawaii.

Renee Shove, RN: I was, um, the director of patient care. So I had been, um, I had over 80 employees underneath me and I was in charge of all of our patient care. I, I. I decided that at that point I wasn't going to go back to the hospital anyway, but I started watching this [00:44:00] trend. These, these coaches that are coaching people through carnivore and through keto.

Renee Shove, RN: And a lot of them, um, I don't want to speak ill of anybody, but a lot of them don't have education. They're just do their, Oh, I am a carnivore. And I went through it so I can coach you. And I was like, well, wait, I'm a nurse. And I have been a nurse for a long time and there's a lot of nursing programs out there for this.

Renee Shove, RN: So I went back to school. I'm almost finished with my nurse coach. Um, I would be, when I'm finished, I'll be a board certified nurse coach in functional and holistic medicine. Um, I finished my functional training already and functional training is right. Looking for root causes instead of just giving medication and stuff.

Renee Shove, RN: You're looking for the root cause of what's causing the diseases and trying to figure out how to fix them without. Throwing medication at them. Um, cause it's easy to just throw medicine at people, but that's really not fixing them. So, and then, um, I will sit [00:45:00] for my boards this upcoming spring, and I'm finishing my keto certification as well this semester, so I will, I, my goal is to help cheerlead people through that transition from a regular diet, the American Standard Diet, to the proper human diet, to carnivore diet.

Renee Shove, RN: I, I prefer carnivore, but I will go off at high fat keto for those that just aren't willing to make that move yet. But, um, I think that if I can heal two auto immune diseases and go into remission, like full on remission, then anybody can do it. You just, you have to have a strong why.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I've personally had two patients with rheumatoid arthritis go on beef, salt, and water, and they resolved all their symptoms of RA and stopped their medications.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I mean, it's a miracle. It's absolutely a miracle.

Renee Shove, RN: It is. And the first couple of months of carnivore are not easy. Like I am not going to lie to [00:46:00] somebody and say, Oh, this is going to be the easiest transition of your life. Because believe me, when your brain stops getting sugar and carbs, it's not an easy transition for a transition to that fat at depth, you know, it has to start using the fat.

Renee Shove, RN: Um, I want to be, I want to be there to help people through that because. It's not easy. And if I had had somebody that I could have just sent a text message to like, Hey, I'm having a really hard time today. You know, this is what's happening and had somebody to talk with me through it, it would have been even easier.

Renee Shove, RN: So I'd like to provide that. And I have a, uh, Really strong desire to work with the VA. Um, I'm manifesting that to the universe because I think that if we can start treating our disabled veterans that have PTSD and depression, if we could start getting them on high fat keto or carnivore diets, we could really, really, really help that population greatly.

Renee Shove, RN: So I would really love to be able to work with that population as well.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah, that's, I love working with the veterans and their, their [00:47:00] dependents, so their wives and kids, you know, wife and kids family, um, because I was in the military and it's a different life. It not necessarily easier or harder, but it's very, very different.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: There's different challenges. And that is a population that is near and dear to my heart.

Renee Shove, RN: Right. And I, uh, I'm a disabled veteran. When I go to the VA, um, I look at some of the people around there and I'm just like, I just want to go sit next to them and be like, you know, I can help you. And you don't want to throw, you don't want to throw that out there at people.

Renee Shove, RN: But at the same time, you know, the VA in some places, they're very progressive up in Phoenix. They have like a whole empathic, they use sound waves. They have all kinds of uh, uh, of outside the normal. stuff. And so I have hope that maybe, maybe that I could get, I just need to find that, that place in, but I really think that it helping veterans would be absolutely phenomenal.

Renee Shove, RN: The ones that are so, you know, [00:48:00] they come back from Afghanistan and they're so, their PTSD is so out of control that they can barely live. Yeah.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And that's, that's part of my, my plan to teach them about that when I see those patients. And then also we often talk about some other treatments as well.

Renee Shove, RN: I, I love it.

Renee Shove, RN: And I, um, so yeah, that's my, that's my goal in life. Uh, I could start coaching now. I finished enough of my training that I could start now, but I'd like to just finish my schooling and focus on getting everything done before I start.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Let me know when you get that done so that I can get you back on and we can help you get some, some people.

Renee Shove, RN: Absolutely. And I'm building up my social media presence and building up, I started a YouTube channel, which I was very resistant at doing. Um, Just because it's really weird talking to a camera without talking to somebody. Um, I'm not, uh, but I started it [00:49:00] and I've actually gotten quite a few people that have already said that I've helped them make a decision and change their lives.

Renee Shove, RN: So, um, it's worth it. If I could touch one person, that's all that, you know, it's, you know, One person at a time.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah. And yeah, the YouTube channel, you do have greater reach with YouTube. Um, this video can probably go on YouTube, uh, but a lot of my videos unfortunately are taken down off of YouTube. And so it's like, I need to reach people, but I, I can't because we talk about subjects in so many of my podcasts that it gets removed within four hours, within six hours.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And it's just, then I can't post for another six months.

Renee Shove, RN: And that's crazy. Um, I, I'm waiting, you know, so far YouTube and Instagram and stuff have been fairly okay with the carnivore population, getting it out there and stuff. And I'm, I'm shocked that more stuff doesn't get pulled down because people don't want to hear it.

Renee Shove, RN: The big pharma doesn't want to hear this. That's for [00:50:00] sure. Uh, I mean, why would you, why would you want to heal people? I'm. No, my insurance is no longer paying 3, 000, 300, 400, 000 a year for my medical treatment. In fact, the only medical treatment I, I see you every once in a while and I see my neurologist every once in a while.

Renee Shove, RN: I mean, that's, that's my medical treatment now.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Well, you can control a mass population if people are dependent on these medications. Yep.

Renee Shove, RN: There's

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: a lot more control issues.

Renee Shove, RN: Well, and they don't think right either when you have all that brain fog, like it's easier to control the masses when they're not at their best.

Renee Shove, RN: And my brain, part of it is coming off the medications, right? Because the duloxetine, which is an SSRI and the nortriptyline and the gabapentin, I mean, I've been maxed out on gabapentin for five years. Uh, my brain, I don't even know how I functioned. [00:51:00] And, um, just clearing that up and being able to, you know, I feel so sad.

Renee Shove, RN: Hindsight, right, is looking at my kids. Their whole high school experience was me sick and being on all those drugs. And I feel bad because I sat on the couch, like I went to work and I didn't retire. I spent five years still working after my diagnosis. I didn't retire until the pain got so bad that I was no longer making it to work every day.

Renee Shove, RN: But I mean, I still made it, I still made it through work and I would give everything to work and come home and have nothing left to give the rest of the family. And so, I mean, I'm lucky that my kids turned out as amazing as they did. And I'm lucky that my husband didn't leave me because I mean, what do you, that's not a life we, before I got sick, we were paddle boarding and hiking and doing all kinds of stuff every weekend.

Renee Shove, RN: I mean, we never stayed home. We were always out [00:52:00] doing something and I worked out five to six days a week. I was a weightlifter and you go from that to nothing.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And for five years, that's a long time to wait for you to get better.

Renee Shove, RN: And it was this easy. I mean, okay, I say this easy, but you know, changing your entire way of eating is not just this easy. Um, a lot of people won't do it just because. They don't want to give up whatever it is. They don't want to give up.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And when I talked to Anthony Chafee, it was amazing to hear him talk about how, you know, this one man that he knew went 10 years, lived for another 10 years after getting a glioblastoma diagnosis. Typically, that's a six month death sentence. He did it because he went carnivore. And it's like to imagine that someone would rather have a piece of cake and die in six months than to never eat cake again and potentially live another 10 [00:53:00] years or more.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: It's just mind blowing. Okay.

Renee Shove, RN: There is no food that I miss enough to go back to being as sick as I was. Um, food is, food is my medicine now, and it is no longer, it is not a source of entertainment, it is not a source, I mean, it is a source of enjoyment because I do love, I mean, it's amazing that every single night my steak still tastes as good as it did the night before.

Renee Shove, RN: Um, because you think you'd get tired of it, but you really don't. When you have all the rest of that out of your system, you don't want it. But it's not like I go through the grocery store and go, Oh, I want that. Oh, I want that. Oh, I miss that. Like it's beeline straight for the meat department. And you don't, you don't crave after all the cravings went away.

Renee Shove, RN: I mean, I have been on and off again, smoke or my entire life since I was 14. And I've, I've fought nicotine and I'll tell you if the first time in my life, the last nine months I've had zero nicotine cravings. I haven't even wanted like, [00:54:00] I, I, I, I can't, I even walk around people when they're smoking cause I'm like this.

Renee Shove, RN: Um, I've been in a, I've been a drinker my entire adult life and I haven't had a drink of alcohol. Well, I quit. That like a year and a half ago, but I haven't even craved like nothing. I am so happy just being me.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: That's amazing. Is

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: there anything else you want to leave us with before we say goodbye?

Renee Shove, RN: Um that there's hope uh, and I I I want to Put that hope out there to people that you don't have to be sick. You really don't. I mean, here we are in our family. Um, we've got, Oh, my husband doesn't even use a CPAP anymore. We've gotten rid of type two diabetes.

Renee Shove, RN: We've gotten rid of two autoimmune diseases. Um, we've gotten rid of depression on both ends and anxiety. Like don't live like that. Take the, take [00:55:00] the step and you don't have to go lion. Don't go extreme. You don't have to be beef, that's not what I'm saying. Um, That worked for me, but that doesn't mean that you have to go that way.

Renee Shove, RN: I think that it sped up how fast I got better. But, um, I just, ever, you should give it a try. Don't give up. Because it, there, if, if, this is an easy way to fix your body. I mean, all honesty.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Just change what you eat. The biggest part is changing your mind to be able to open your mind to think that this could be healthy.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And then once you do, you see that it truly is healthy.

Renee Shove, RN: Right, and get a community. Um, there are so many communities out there for carnivores. That, that you have support systems, you have doctors that are accessible to talk to. You know, I have watched almost every single one of the videos Dr. Barry has made, and Dr.

Renee Shove, RN: Chafee has made, and, and, [00:56:00] um, Dr. Sean Baker and Dr. Kiltz. Like, I, they're putting all of this information out there for free. There, there is no commitment. There's no charge. There's no nothing. They just want people to know that they can, that they can heal. So, immerse yourself. YouTube became my best friend.

Renee Shove, RN: Um, I never thought I'd spend so much time on YouTube. But, having those, having, having that out there for you, it's amazing. So

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: perfect

Renee Shove, RN: community and hope.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yes, hoping to change. Yep. You can change your future. You can heal yourself with meat

Renee Shove, RN: Absolutely.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Thank you so much for joining me.

Renee Shove, RN: Thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: That was

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: just a reminder for everyone [00:57:00] out there duty uniform of the day The full armor of God. Let's all make courage more contagious than fear.

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