Nurse Kelly: Welcome
to After Hours with Dr.

Sigoloff, where he can share
ideas and thoughts with you.

He gets to the heart of the issue
so that you can find the truth.

The views and opinions expressed
are his and do not represent the US

Army, d o d, nor the US government.

Dr.

Sigoloff was either off duty
or unapproved leave, and Dr.

Sigoloff was not in uniform
at the time of recording.

Now to Dr.

Sigoloff.

Sam Sigoloff: thank you for joining me
again, we have our Patreon supporters

that I wanna give a quick shout out to.

We have the pandemic reprimand.

Level tier, which is $17 and 76 cents
a month that they give, and that those

contributors are Sam and Angela Schulke.

We have Perry, we have the self-made
$10 level with Kevin and Katie, and

we have the refined, not burned level
tier at $5 a month with Joe and pj.

I wanna thank them very much for all
of the, the support they've given.

This has been a a difficult fight.

We've, you know, my family has put
in well over $60,000 of, for legal

fees, and we do truly appreciate
anything that, that can help.

And also wanna say that if you look
behind me, you can see this patch

I will have as soon as I can get
my store up and running, I'll have

that patch available for purchase.

It, it's a good way to support
me also with these legal fees

because again, we've, we've
sent quite a bit of money on it.

But it's also a way you can
show your friends where you are,

what you think, and, and you
can join this reprimanded ranks.

You know, they, they ordered
us to be reprimanded.

However, we've made it into
the order of the reprimand.

We've taken what they've meant for evil,
and we've turned it into something good.

All right.

Enough about that.

Today we have Dave Hams.

Now I kind of stumbled
across Dave on LinkedIn.

Go check him out.

He's got a business that he's running.

It's kind of an outdoorsy thing.

You might enjoy it.

It's a summer thing.

You know, if, if you can
spend some time with him.

But let's learn about his story today.

So, so Dave, you, well, first
tell me why you're, why you wanna

share your experience publicly.

Dave Hamski: Hey Sam.

Thanks for having me on.

Just wanna start off by
saying Happy Veterans Day.

And you know, my purpose for, for being on
sharing my story, what my goal is, is to.

Connect with all service members at
current and past that have been deeply

affected by a stable military right now.

Especially with the, the mandate
and then it goes for both those who

are vaccinated and unvaccinated.

And you know, specifically for company
level leaders and field grade level

leaders I hope that I can create some,
some thought-provoking discussion

amongst them and you know, I'm not
even gonna bother, bother with the GOs.

They're too far gone at
this part at this point.

But you know, I do think there's still
hope for company level leaders and

field grade level leaders to right, the
wrongs that have occurred and I'm just

hoping to generate and encourage them.

Sam Sigoloff: And one thing that, that
I wanna make abundantly clear is, cuz

you, you kind of touched on this, but
there's the jab and there's the un jabbed.

Mm-hmm.

. And, and I don't like those divisions.

You know, I, I feel, I feel bad for
people that took the jab feeling

that they, you know, being coerced,
many of them being coerced and many

of those, you know, and those that
wanted to get it, many of them lied to.

So I certainly don't want this
to be a us against them, cuz it's

not, that's not, this is at all,

Dave Hamski: I mean, we all
wear the same uniform, you know?

And, and that's what it's about is,
hey, we all wear the same uniform.

We have the same mission.

But, but right now there is a
distinction that's been made unfairly.

And you know, hey, if we're gonna get
the mission done we, we need to, we need

to correct some things and not look at
ourselves as those who have and those

who have not totally agree with you.

Sam Sigoloff: and there's this idea
in the military, you know, you're

not, you're not, you know, Asian
or American or Hispanic or black

or white or this or that, or green.

We're all green.

Exactly.

You know, I had a special
forces patient who was in the

Special forces in in VE Vietnam.

And he was in there before, you know,
like the early, like the, I think it

was the late sixties, and he was African
American and everyone is green to them.

That's, that's how he like, it shocked
him when he had a, a combatant say, how

can you fight for these people when you
can't sit at, at a dinner table with

everyone you're standing here with?

And he is like, what are you talking?

I mean this, you know, cuz
he spoke Polish, this African

American man spoke Polish cuz he
grew up in a Polish neighborhood.

It's like colors not a thing
and we, it's we're all green.

Well, same thing with this shot.

It's not v un vax, it's, we're all
green fighting the same mission.

And, and the leadership has come down
and said, no, your different split up.

No, your different split
up causing division.

And many of us have bought
into that, that garbage that we

are different, unfortunately.

Dave Hamski: Exactly.

And, and we just need to, I, I
think things like this right now

addressing that, that, that helps end.

And that distinction that's been made
and, and I mean it shouldn't be our

responsibility, but unfortunately we're
the ones who are taking it on to and,

and like actively taking it on right now.

So I gotta build the
momentum and keep that

Sam Sigoloff: going.

I think you

have a dog next to you that's not

Dave Hamski: Yeah, I'm sorry
that they just woke up.

It's . I think they were saying hello
earlier when you're doing a call

out to shout out to to everybody.

So,

Sam Sigoloff: so you know what
that noise is, isn't that?

Yeah.

Yeah.

. We're are we?

Okay.

So, so yeah.

So, and one of the most important
things is why are you here?

Tell me what your job was, what you
did and what put you in this position

now that you get to have a nice, long
beer and you get to work for yourself

Dave Hamski: Exactly.

Yeah.

So I was a company commander stationed
at joint based Al Manor in Alaska.

I commanded in the it's now
two 11 and I was in third

Battalion, five oh ninth Infantry.

The the G Men , so.

I served as a coming commander
for a line infantry airborne

company baker company specifically.

And then after that command,
I was selected the command

again for headquarters and
headquarters company of the 35 0 9.

And that's where I was relieved
of command for refusing to

support the vaccine mandate

Sam Sigoloff: and for the listener.

Like they don't just pick
anybody to be a commander.

It's one of the most challenging
jobs that you can have as a

company commander because you're,
you're fairly young typically.

You know, you're, it's lieutenant,
lieutenant, captain, second, first

lieutenant, and then captain.

So you, I mean, you've been in,
you've had three promotions mm-hmm.

, but the people who become company
commanders, they're the ones who are,

who rise above their peers as leaders.

So, so what happened next?

You were relieved and, and
kind of go into that a bit.

Dave Hamski: Yeah.

So just a little timeline for you.

You know, about March, 2021 it's,
you know, pretty clear that, hey, the

the vaccine's gonna roll out already,
well, actually had already rolled out.

And and people were lining
up to to, to receive it.

And ra there's talks that, okay, hey, this
is gonna be mandated for the military.

And I immediately just felt
that it, it was not right.

I was, I had immediate concerns,
you know, I thought, man, this

is like really, really rushed.

I, I even had, you know,
a former colleague who was

on operational war speed.

I, I talked.

To him about it and everything was, oh,
hey, like, you know, we were able to cut

through red tape that normally happens
for with, with other vaccines production.

But this is safe and effective, you
know, the same line over and over again.

And I, you know, started developing
my, my own analysis in my head

going, okay, hey, you know, this
is, this is gonna be very big.

It's gonna, you know, it's gonna get,
gonna be mandated for the entire force.

Like I, this just does not
seem right, this does not seem,

this does not sit well with me.

And so, you know, going on through
the months I end up then taking

command of hhc in April, and this is
after having had C I, I got c and.

You know, I, I recovered thankfully.

And from there, the there was this,
you know, steady push, okay, hey, you

know, go, it's available, go get now.

You know, summer comes and
I still haven't gotten it.

And I think that there, that's when talks
started to occur, you know, about like,

oh hey, like, you know, the vaccines
here, you know you know, leaders lead

out in front you, you go and get the, the
vaccine first and then others will follow.

You know, like, we need to,
to show our shoulders, we'll

do what, what they should do.

And I wasn't having any of that.

I was like, okay, hey, no, this
is not, this is not ethical.

And, and then, you know, we started
getting closer to the mandate date and.

It's very, very obvious now that
people, that there's a small co

cohort of officers and leaders who
have not gotten the vaccine yet.

And so I'm getting talked to just
off the side, you know, at like

breakfast or anything like, Hey, Kim
Haki, like, you know what are your

thoughts on the vaccine and everything?

I just tell people straight
up like, I'm not getting it.

I'm like, this is unethical.

This is an experiment and this is,
this is not gonna work out right.

And I said, there's no,

Sam Sigoloff: I love that boldness
just straight from the start,

just so I'm not getting it.

I just mm-hmm.

, I love it.

Dave Hamski: And, and you know, I
had discussions with my wife about

it too, where you know, I was like,
I just don't feel this is right.

I don't I don't think this healthy.

And, and she said, You know,
Hey, this is your decision.

And, and I just love that respect,
you know, like, and I think that's

the respect that everyone should
have had from the very beginning.

Hey, this is your decision,
your, your health decision.

You can, you know, if you want to get the
vaccine you, you can go ahead and get it.

You know, personally, I, I
recommend against it , , you

know, for these various reasons.

And my, my wife has a health background,
so she's like, Hey, listen, like these

are some, some concerning things about it.

And you know, but I'm not going, I'm
not the one to make that decision.

I'm the one here to,
you know, support you.

And so I just tell her, I was
like, I'm, I'm not gonna get this.

There's just two, I mean,
what about fertility risks?

What about, you know, us
wanting to start a family?

Like what all the things
we don't know right now?

You know?

So that's, that's the stance I took.

And then, you know, we'll see here
, the mandate comes and it's like that

weeker two week period or so after
the mandate came out where they're

like, okay, hey, like y'all have, you
have this amount of time to get it.

We had a brigade run, you know,
oh, don't you love brigade runs?

You know, it's

.
Sam Sigoloff: I luckily don't have to

do many of those in a doctor.

Yeah,

Dave Hamski: exactly.

So at the very end, our brigade commander
called all the company commanders

and first sergeants in into a circle.

And very, very sternly said to all of
us, like, you all will get vaccinated

or I will relieve you of command or
responsibility, whatever it may be.

You will receive a relief for cause oer.

You can get either court marshaled
or dishonorably discharged.

And he's like, we're not
messing around with this.

Just get it.

When was this like, on or about time?

This was on or about the August?

It had August 20.

August 20?

Yes.

August 21.

Wow.

Yeah.

So August or early September

21.

Sam Sigoloff: I was in Alaska
until probably like July of 21

and I think it was like in March.

Okay.

I had a, a, my, my boss
and doctor said, SIG off.

Quit.

Quit telling patients not to get the shot.

But sir, I've never told
anyone not to get the shot.

That's a foolish thing to say.

I give them the truth as best I
can and he said, but you knows off.

You can tell him.

Exactly.

Get the shot.

I would never tell anybody.

Get a new experimental form of treatment.

That's not even a, a vaccine.

It's a gene therapy that has
ingredients in it that are not.

For human use, but, okay, sorry.

Yep.

Yeah.

So it's this culture.

Exactly.

And, and I, as, as a doctor, I've seen
many command sergeant majors who is

like the enlisted right underneath the
commander and many commanders who use that

same phrase, well, it's not mandated yet.

And so they, they have this culture that's
been going on for months and months and

months that, well, you better get it
cuz you need, you'll need to get it.

And you don't wanna wait in line and
you know, not be able to go on leave

because you didn't get it cuz there's
nothing left when it's required.

It's like good that, that
is coercion at its worst.

Dave Hamski: Yep.

And, and I remember standing there
and being like, okay, like if there's

anything that tells me this is like,
if I wasn't right to begin with,

I'm like, okay, this is, you know,
the bells and whistles right here.

You know, I have a senior
leader who's he was pissed off.

I mean that there's no other
way to like Yeah, exactly.

And.

, you know, I just remember and I like the
guy too, you know and I just remember

being like, okay, this is not right.

Like this is this right here
shows like morally, there's,

there's something inept about it.

So I decide right then, then and
there I was like, okay, I'm definitely

not I'm not wavering on this at all.

This is, I, I trusted my gut.

I know that my gut is right
on this, so let's , let's go.

And that was a really difficult day
because that's like the day right then and

there where I knew like my career's over.

So like even before everything that
happened afterwards that, that I'll get

into, I just remember being like, Ugh,
like this is gonna be really painful.

Sam Sigoloff: There, there's
something that, that you had, I

think inside you and I, I don't, this
may describe this wrong, but this

is kind of the feeling that I get.

So I, I read this book a while
back called Rich Dad Poor Dad.

I encourage everyone to read.

It's very, very informative.

And he's a ex-marine,
you know, what's Marine?

Always Marine.

And it's all about investment.

And he has this one opportunity where
he's employed and they said, oh,

I'm gonna pay you a dollar a week.

And he's like, that's,
that's way too little.

And the guy's like, okay, well
what would you rather have?

Would you rather have $2 a week
or I'll give you $50 a week?

And he's like, whoa, wait a second.

The price is not right for the job.

Meaning why would you, why
would you offer me so much?

Because that's not right.

It doesn't, you're offering way more.

You're trying to coerce me to do
something that maybe I don't want

to do, I don't wanna sign up for.

And that's the same thing with this.

It's the price is not right.

And that's, I think that may have
been what you were feeling deep

down is the price isn't right.

Why are they trying, what is the
driving force to get me to take this,

even when it's not mandated yet, when
it's experimental, when it's gene

therapy, there's so much we don't know.

and I, I think a lot of people have been
motivated by like, they don't know why,

but they just, the price isn't right.

They're, they're trying
to give me too much.

Dave Hamski: Exactly.

Exactly.

Yeah, I couldn't agree, agree more
with you on that because you know, of

course anyone who's refused has heard
the the counter-argument, you know,

well, you got all the other ones.

Why are you making a big deal?

Big deal about this And, and that's,
that comes back to what you're talking

about with the prices right there.

I even said to my commanders, like, you
know, I would strongly consider this if

they actually finish the phase four trials
on it, you know, but hey, that takes

about eight years total to, to be done.

And I was like, can you, and, and this
was one of my arguments that, well,

like one of my points that I would share
with anyone who like had to counsel

me about not taking the jab is I.

Do you know of anyone who's had, who's
conceived and had a healthy child yet?

After both or just one of the parents
getting, getting vaccinated, and

that was always just waved off.

Like, and I was like, Hey, this
is where I'm at in my stage

of life, and I'm not gonna let
anyone anyone interfere with that.

And it, it was, you know, waved
off as like, okay, like, well,

we understand, we're like, we're
respecting that, but like, you

know, like it's safe and effective.

Like it's not gonna it.

And I'm like, you don't know that.

I'm like, you can't tell me
right now and think about it.

Think about the cohort that
we have here in the military.

Generally all these people have their
lives, their entire lives ahead of them.

And, you know, Y we can't tell them
definitively, Hey, this is gonna mess up.

This will either save you or it
won't mess up the rest of your life.

You know, like that.

I, I was just so like, how do you
all not see the ethical dilemma here?

So, you know, moving on from that
you know, we had to do counseling.

So, you know, finally, I think it was
like a week or two later you know,

the date passes where it's like, okay,
hey, you're going to be behind now.

Like, you won't be vaccinated in time
because you didn't take the first shot.

So like we all got sat down and it
was, this was like the second point at

which I knew, okay, hey this is not.

a ethical or morally sound order.

And this whole entire mandate is, is
wrong, is my commander cannot give

the order in a strong, confident way.

So there is lots of, you know,
swallowing and like, like talking as

if the, he's reading off of a paper
and he's just not doing it confidently.

He's like, I am ordering you all to
take the Covid 19 vaccine COVID 19

vaccine prevents the covid 19 disease.

And, and, and he just like would stop and
be like and it was just awkward and it

was, I'll never forget because, you know,
I've received many orders in my life and.

And this one stood out as the, the
weakest order I've ever been given.

And, and I've been given orders
in environments where things were

super stressful or super uncertain,
but still it was like, okay, hey,

I don't know if we should do this,
but we have to do something and

this is our best bet right now.

And being airborne, this order was just so

Sam Sigoloff: weekly being airborne
when you're in the plane and you don't

jump when you're supposed to jump.

I mean, that, that's an order to jump.

And, and if you, they'll make you
like, at least in the school, because

I've done my, I've done my five jumps.

I, I know . Yeah, do another one.

Hopefully airborne.

But they have you sit on your hands
because they don't want you messing

with your stuff and, and making a
problem when there maybe wasn't.

But if you don't like to disobey
that order, you must prove that

there was a reason why you didn't
obey it when you get on the ground.

And if there's something wrong
with your equipment, good on you.

If not, well bad on you cuz
you just disobey an order.

To jump out of a plane like that,
that's how orders are given.

That's the magnitude of
orders you can get in trouble.

And here he is kind of mey
mouth given this order.

It's like, that's typically, it's
jump outta the plane, go take

the hill, you know, go do pt.

Dave Hamski: Exactly.

And so that, that's what
leads me to this next point.

You know, I wrote, I wrote this
down because I wanted to make

sure I, I said it correctly.

But when a commander's giving an order,
it's not just a justification enough

to say that order is obedient to the
orders from those above, above him.

So you know who, whether it be a policy
maker or a senior military official you

know that it's obedient to what they're
saying to do when giving that order.

The commander.

Must also take responsibility
for that order.

So what I think was happening with,
with some of these commanders is they

were unsure of that responsibility part.

They know, okay, hey, I've been told
I'm just following orders, I'm being

obedient to the chain of command.

But I think that deep down inside most
of these commanders had some sort of

confliction with the responsibility of it.

Does that make sense?

Sam Sigoloff: It sure does.

Cause it just didn't seem
right, so nothing is right

about it and it's not right.

Dave Hamski: Yeah.

And, and that's where,
you know, I think people.

, they rely too much on the,
oh, it's a legal order.

Like, I can't tell you how many times
I heard that it's a legal order.

It's a legal order.

Okay.

Just because a, a, an order can
be legal, but not morally or

ethically based, you know, not
morally or ethically sound at all.

And so, you know, you and I as officers,
all all officers, we have a obligation

to refuse and dissent any orders that are
not morally, ethically, or legally sound.

And so, you know, that's what I really
encourage, you know, leaders right now

you know, especially our company grade
and field grade officers is, this is not

over with, with the way that technology is
being pushed and especially biotechnology.

unfortunately, we're gonna run into this
issue again, unless something drastically

changes, and maybe we're the beginning
of the change here, but they need to

be aware that the orders that they're
giving have to meet those three criteria.

They have to be, and, and it, I'd
argue in this order, you know, morally,

ethically, and then lawfully sound,
they had to meet all those criteria.

And it is very possible today to
have orders that are legal but

not morally or ethically sound.

And so in a different, and as
an officer, you gotta refuse

Sam Sigoloff: it.

The difference there, the illegal
and the lawful are different.

And a lot of times that's
not well understood.

But for something to be legally
to, to be legal means that someone

wrote down somewhere and some people
voted on it and they made it a law.

Now for something to be
lawful, that means that mm-hmm.

, you are not infringing on
someone's God-given rights.

So what that means, like a good
example of this would be, it

might be legal to own slaves.

Cuz you could have a lot of have that
like we had in our country at one

point, but it's certainly not lawful.

Mm-hmm.

, everyone agrees that that is,
that's a terrible thing to have.

And, and we know that because it's, it's
written on our hearts that that is wrong.

And so that's the difference between
legality or something being legally

correct and lawfully correct.

Dave Hamski: Exactly.

Exactly.

So, yeah.

You hit the nail on the
head there with that.

Sam Sigoloff: Okay.

And we had some more, I had some other
questions that I wanted to ask you.

We talked about how you were,
did we talk about how you were

treated different for refusing?

We've kind of tangentially hit that.

Dave Hamski: Yes.

So you know, when I was doing my
counseling specifically with the, the

brigade command team and brigade jag and
all that, one of the points that came up

or like there's just accusations that, you
know, others who refused, didn't receive.

And so the main accusation now's put
against me was I was holding up the

the vaccine the vaccination of the
force, and that because I was refusing,

there were others, there were a lot
of others below me that were refusing.

And while, I mean, I hope this is
true the, the timing of it was.

, you know, all those who had waited
long enough and then got the first jab

weren't considered fully vaccinated.

So they just said, oh, this company has
like, you know, 60 or some holdouts.

That's all because of Captain Hams.

And so, you know, that that accusation
that I was, you know, like a little

rebellion was, was ridiculous.

I was like, I'm like, Hey, look, you know
a as soon as they relieved me and, and

I left the next day or so, there was the
second round of jabs for, for the company.

And so, you know, when I got.

counseled again after that, it was,
they said, Hey, look, as soon as we

relieved you from command, you know,
the the numbers of vaccinated in

your company drastically increased.

And I was like, of course it did,
because you know, the other people

who got the second, the other people
who need the second jab got it.

You know, like of course, you know, of
course that big sense and saw you get

relieved that the numbers was, yeah.

And, and so, and, and the other thing
was is the, those who, I don't know of

many who were relieved or not, I don't
know of any of the other commanders.

I apparently there's like
five or six of us out there.

But I don't know if anyone else in
a, in a position who refused it, if.

They were they, they were immediately
separated from the formation and kind

of like ushered away without addressing
the formation about what's going on.

So for me the day that I refused a
second time, honestly, because the

first time they gave me the order,
they didn't say the wording right.

And then had the paper, the legal
papers correctly worded, did the same.

So technically we had to refuse.

Didn't say to me, it
was like, come back in.

Exactly.

And I was like, gosh,
this just here, right.

Shows, right here shows that it's it,
it's just all a mess and not, right.

Well, as soon as I refused the, the
second time and they said, okay, you you

need to meet with the brigade commander.

So I went out to Bri Brigade commander.

They already had the paperwork set
up, and they said, Hey, you're hereby

relieved from command by the commanding
General of US Forces Army, Alaska,

which I thought was interesting.

You know, that a general was, was
relieving me instead of like my

brigade commander who's like, you
know, actually in charge of me.

So they said, you need to go back to
your office and, and clear your office

out and and you are not allowed to be
in your office without being escorted

in there by the battalion commander.

And and you're not allowed
to address your formation.

So it just went from like,
oh, you know, Hey, hey Dave.

Hey Captain Hans.

Like, you know, like, we respect
your, your wishes for your own health

and everything to immediately like.

Okay.

You're not part of this team.

You you are a threat
like, like a prisoner.

And I don't know if that was their, you
were isolated, like, and so Exactly.

So I think that was one, one of the
most painful parts of it was I was

not able to address my formation
of paratroopers and say, Hey guys,

this is what, what's happened.

I'm sure you've heard through the
private news network , but I want,

I was never for the opportunity to
just tell them like, Hey, thank you.

I really appreciate, I appreciate
and I love every single one of y'all.

And this is what's going on right now.

Please continue to focus on the
mission, focus on your job, do it well.

And you know, just thank you.

Okay.

And I'll continue serving you because
that's, that's where my heart's at.

It was.

I, I was never afforded that
opportunity, which, you know, I will

give credit to my battan commander.

He did later come out and tell the
battalion or my company, he's specifically

just hhc, Hey, this's going on.

He's gonna be up at brigade
if you see him around, say hi.

And, and that's that.

And I was like, you know, this is, I
don't think that happened to anyone else.

So that was a special kind of isolation,
I guess you could say, or, or segregation

that I, I would like to know if any
other commanders, you know, went

through, if that happened to 'em as well,

Sam Sigoloff: and.

But did you submit any sort of like
let's say religious accommodations

or medical exemptions to try to
fight it in that, that sense?

Dave Hamski: So that's,
that's a really good question.

So no a as a commander, I did not.

And my reasoning behind that was
I, I chose be it general refusal

because overarching everything
I just said, this is just wrong.

This is unethical.

And and, and that's, that's
just what it is for me.

And you know, I'm Jesus
Christ is my savior.

So, you know, as a Christian,
I thought, Hey, submit a

religious accommodation request.

But as a commander, I thought, what if
my religious accommodation request gets

accepted, but one of my soldiers doesn't?

You know?

And then I, I do have some, some health
issues that that some doctors say,

Hey, yeah, you it's a heart block.

And so some doctors say, Hey, you
shouldn't you shouldn't get the

vaccine because of your heart block

Sam Sigoloff: as a physician.

I think you should not get it because it
has products in it that we don't know.

The full safety protocol of the
profile of them, the, the toxicology

reports are classified and it says
clearly on the safety data sheet

that these are not for human use.

And one of 'em says,
not for veterinary use.

Dave Hamski: Yeah.

And, and so I, you know, I went
to a civilian doctor who said

the same things on the same page.

He's like, he's like, first off,
like, you know, you're healthy.

You're, you're a young,
healthy, 31 year old guy.

Like, there's no reason
for you to get this.

Like you already had covid you, you
know, have natural immunity to it.

You'll probably get again, because
like it's gonna, you know, morph and

everything, but you're gonna be fine.

And then also you said like, Hey, you
know, you like, you have one of these like

category one, like heart blocks which, you
know, a lot of athletes have, have them.

It's just like a little, you know,
I'm explained to a doctor explain

to just little electrical discharge.

But he's like, I eat, you know,
even if you weren't healthy, I'd

just say like, Hey, there's just
no reason to risk this right now.

And so, . You know, I, I thought,
okay, what if, you know, my religious

accommodation request or my medical
exemption request gets approved, but none

of my paratroopers does soly because,
you know, I'm in a position a leadership

position or something like that.

I just thought, I don't see how there's
going to actually be any, any fair

determination for, for any, any request.

And, you know, then it
all came back to that.

I just still at the very base of
it, like, this is unethical and this

is gonna tear the, the force apart.

We, we shouldn't, we shouldn't do it.

Sam Sigoloff: So if I could
interject for a second,

And this is gonna be hard to hear
cuz it's, it's, it will convict

many people who are listening
to this who got the shot.

And I, and I don't mean
for it to be that way.

So please don't as best you can, but,
but use this as a way to, to look

at yourself if you, cuz there is,
you have a right to your own body.

Right?

And if you, if you, in fear of
losing your job, give up your, your

God-given your constitutional given
rights on your own body, how can you,

how can anyone expect you to protect
anyone else's constitutional rights?

Dave Hamski: Mm-hmm.

. Exactly.

And, and I mean, that, that was the other
thing, you know, in the position as a

commander with, with, you know these,
these requests, I almost felt like it,

and I'm not take, take anything out
against religious or medical requests,

but I thought that it would obscure.

The fact of the matter,
which is it's wrong.

You know, it's, it's an experiment.

It's gene therapy.

Like, and, and we were basically
letting them get, get away with it.

By not just outright saying no, I was
like, you should not have an excuse

just because of what you believe.

You should not have an excuse,
you know, for for like, oh, I

have this medical condition.

It should just flat out be no, because
this is, you have that got given right

Sam Sigoloff: to say no.

Or so, you know, God's law or nature's
law, it's, you have that bestowed

upon you, not because you're a
citizen, but because you're a human.

And all those rights are protected
by the Constitution and Exactly.

The Bill of Rights.

Dave Hamski: Exactly.

Exactly.

So, you know, I decided
to be a general refusal.

After I was relieved of command, I went in
just for the heck of it to my physician's

assistant with my doctor's notes saying
that I should not get the vaccine.

I was like, you know what, I'm gonna
go in there anyways, and I just

wanna hear what they're gonna say.

So I signed up I called my my
provider went into the, the troop

medical clinic, had my appointment.

I was like, Hey, so my career's
already pretty much canned now.

But I really wanna know, like,
here's my medical my medical

history, should I get the vaccine?

You know, I, I really don't
want to, like, am I someone who

could get a a medical exemption?

And he looked at me and said, no, . And
he's like, it's safe and effective.

Hey, listen, you know, I just had,
you know, a 33 year old die from this.

Wow.

He too long ago.

And, you know, of the
shot or of the disease.

Yeah.

Sam Sigoloff: Yeah.

And it, and he differentiated.

Was it the disease after he had the shot?

Dave Hamski: No, he said he did, he said
that this was an unvaccinated 33 year

old that, that that died from, cause they

Sam Sigoloff: can also say you're
unvaccinated if you're not two

weeks past the second dose.

Okay.

So, I mean, there's, okay.

Dave Hamski: We don't know.

So he didn't, he didn't differentiate
between that, but he just, you know,

said like, Hey, listen, like there's.

there's no real viable medical explanation
to go against not getting vaccinated.

It's safe and effective.

Get it.

And, you know, I was just
like, okay, well, whatever.

Like, I wasted your time then . So so
I, I, I did not pursue any exemptions.

It was more so just for being like,
okay, I wanna see what they say because,

you know, I went and saw a, a civilian
doctor who is telling me like, no man.

Like there's no reason for get this.

You should not.

And I've got the paperwork for it.

Let me see what the Army
doc says to me about it.

That's,

Sam Sigoloff: that's wild.

Okay.

There's something that you had
mentioned to me before that I

thought was a very interesting idea
and it's the, the Baba syndrome.

2.0.

Can you, can you share that idea?

I think it's, it's hitting
the nail right on the head.

Dave Hamski: Yes.

Okay.

So for, for those who aren't familiar with
the story of Shiba, there was King David

and he's he, he's ruling over his land.

He's out on top of one of his towers
there, and he looks out and he sees

this beautiful woman be Sheba who's,
who's over on another rooftop.

And he, you know, LUS after her and
he finds out that one of his military

commanders is the husband of, of be Sheba.

So you know, king David goes on to have
an affair with Be Sheba and in order to

hide it from that military commander.

, he orders that military commander
and his army to appoint in a battle

where they all get slaughtered.

He knew that these he knew that his
military, military commander and those

soldiers would, would not be able to
hold and that point of the battle.

But he sent them anyways, so you know,
later on he, he repents for, for that.

And you know, we, our, our military
leaders, they, there's a couple senior

ranking military leaders who have suffered
from best Sheba syndrome where, you know,

they've been at the top of their game and
they go and have an extra marital affair.

Or they spend government money in an
illegal way and they end up getting,

you know, they end up getting caught
and their careers get torched.

And it's all it is over the news.

You know, and I mean, I won't name names,
but this has happened multiple times.

You can, you know, just look, just type
up be Sheba syndrome military leaders and,

and there there's unfortunately a long
list of those who have fallen to this.

Well, you know, it's that
leader who is betraying others

due to his lust or his greed.

What I notice is a phenomenon with the
military leaders that, that I've talked

to that, that got the, the vaccine.

There's a quite a few who said to
me, I don't want this, but I need to

get it in order to protect my career.

Or I don't want this, but I'm
two years away from retiring.

I just need to get it.

Or, you know, these are people
and I'm very, very much making

distinction that these are
people in positions of authority.

So like senior non-commissioned officers
and you know, feel grade and company

leader officers, they're saying, I don't
want this, but they're getting it anyways.

And what that is, is they're betraying
themselves and then those who are in

positions of authority and ordering.

The soldiers below them to get the vaccine
that are betraying those soldiers as well.

And they're doing it solely
to protect their career.

That's what I'm calling Beba Syndrome
2.0 is they, they're, and it's,

it's awful because they're they're
not just betraying someone else.

They're betraying themselves all for
their career and for, and so, you

know, I, I've talked to yeah, for money
and for status and I mean, that's,

how can you follow someone like that?

You know, if, how can you follow
someone who's gonna betray themselves

like ? I mean, that's a, that's
setting off some alarm bells there.

Like, okay, well if they betray
themselves, they'll probably betray me.

You know, especially for an
institution that's centered off trust.

It is a special, you know,

Sam Sigoloff: he was telling me, He
wasn't, he didn't have a long tab.

There's very few that do, but he went to
a unit that was special forces and he said

the, the commander when he showed up, he
said, look, you can do anything wrong.

You know, like, people do wrong
stuff, but if you cheat on

your wife, you're outta here.

It's like, that seems strange.

No, it's, it's absolutely correct
because if you can betray the person

that you have become one flesh with, then
you can betray anybody at that point.

There is nothing sacred in your life.

Mm-hmm.

. And it makes per perfect sense.

Dave Hamski: Yeah.

Well, good on that commander for, for
having that, you know, and to, to,

to say that to soldiers straight up.

I mean, the hits the nail on the head.

And you know, I, I had some conversations
with, with some, some leaders throughout

the organization up there in Alaska.

And like one of the things
that, that one of them said, and

this, this is a senior ranking.

Army officer there.

He said, if I get cancer
from this, then so be it.

And I just like looked at him
and was like, I'm like, all

right, say that to your wife.

Say that to your daughter.

You know, like that's, that's insane
that you would, you know, because like, I

mean, that, that, that rolls so much into
it of like, okay, hey, well, you know,

someone's gonna have to take care of you.

And just all the emotional stuff
tangled into it and, you know to,

to see that, to see our force just
at this point where, you know,

people take something out of fear.

Like, Hey, I, I need to maintain this job.

Like, I really don't want this.

Like, and just go ahead and take it.

I'm, it, it, it's really saddening to me.

Sam Sigoloff: We need men to
be men, women to be women, to

stand up and do what's right.

. And if they don't want to do it, then
they shouldn't ask anyone else to do it.

Exactly.

They shouldn't do it if
they don't want to do it.

You should never do what
you don't want to do.

Exactly.

Dave Hamski: Exactly.

And if you have something in you that's
telling you this is, this is wrong.

Talk about it.

Speak about it.

And and yeah, you just, I mean, we
all have a moral compass for a reason.

So here's

Sam Sigoloff: another question that
you, you may or may not want to answer,

and you may wanna be kind of aloof
about it, and that's okay if you do.

But what do you think should happen
to Commanders that gave this order?

And if you, again, if you
don't wanna answer this.

Dave Hamski: No, I won't
be able to No, no.

I got something on this one.

They, they need to admit that they're
wrong and they, they should be punished.

. And so I think, you know, those at very
senior levels should receive the, the

har the not harsh what the law last
for the, the full, the fullest extent.

Yeah, exactly.

What the law allows for and what's
what is just so they should receive.

You know, I think what they should
receive is the, you know, getting,

getting sent out on their way.

But at the end of the day, all the
way down to the, the platoon leader,

they need to be told, Hey, this was
wrong and we need to correct it.

Because when you don't do.

When you just ignore it and
move on, that sets a precedence

for this to happen again.

And then even worse, for those who
are that in tune with their, their

conscience, this is going to eat
some people up where they're gonna be

like, oh, you know, there's a lot, you
know, there's people in my formation

again, who are now sick from this.

And, you know, I was the one who,
who forced them to, to do this.

I'm the one who, who was
part of the coercion.

I'm the one who denied, you know,
the religious eque or, or made

this made life difficult on them.

And so at a minimum, at a minimum, those
people, those those leaders need to talk

to their formation, say, Hey, I messed up.

You know?

And as you go out to chain command,
I, I, you know, heck, I mean, can

you really give go Mars and, and the
careers of everyone in the Army right

now, or in the military, like , it's
not realistic, but we need to, we

need to write this before it becomes
another moral injury for the Army.

I don't think that, that, I don't
think that, well, the military as a

whole, I don't know if, I don't think
we can suffer another moral injury.

I mean, we've it, it, it'll be too much.

So and, and I already know
the argument against it.

Like that's, you know, ludi, ludicrous,
like the army in the military as

a whole, d o d would never would
never do that because it would

be a threat to national security.

It would make us look weak, you know?

It would, it would break trust.

I mean, what's.

. How, how are you gonna fix this thing?

Like, how, how are you
gonna build trust already?

The, the trust structure is crumbled.

I mean, I can't tell how many
soldiers I've talked with that are

like, man, I'm just getting out.

Like I'm serving.

I'm finishing up my contract.

I'm getting out.

No, no way am I going to re-up.

You know, no way I'm gonna tell one of
my friends or family to join right now.

You know, we need leaders to step
up and be exactly what they're

supposed to be and say we messed
up and we take responsibility.

You know, and I'll add to that, I don't
know, did you see that video of the

midshipman at the Naval Academy where
they're talking about the honor code and

living an honorable life and he starts
asking a question to the the commandant.

Okay, so yeah, there's, there's this
video of this midshipman who they're

in an auditorium at the Naval Academy
and it's all 4,000 midshipmen.

And so what midshipman and
cadets go through is professional

military ethics education.

PME squared is what they call for short.

And like every month, all the cadets
in midshipman, you know, at the

respective academies had to like,
do either in small groups or large

groups talk about the honor code
and talk about honorable living.

And and it's so sicking to hear
and talk about like things in order

to prepare them to be leaders.

Yeah.

And so this so sickening

Sam Sigoloff: to hear these people
talk about this stuff when it's

like, But you're not doing it.

Dave Hamski: Exactly.

So this midshipman, you know, stands
up, introduces himself and starts

asking a question to the commandant
of Midshipman about honorable living.

And he mentions he is like, as
a midshipman with a religious

accommodation request in how
can we define honorable living?

And even before he can finish the
question, like, we don't know what his

question was, but we know it has something
to do with, with refusing the vaccine and

having religious accommodation request.

And the commandant interrupts him.

And, and the comical part
of it is the commandant's.

Like, I'm not interrupting
you , but he clearly is.

He goes, he's like, I'm
not interrupting you, but.

, this is a conversation.

This is more of a one to four
conversation, not a one to 4,000

because all 4,000 midshipmen
are inside this auditorium.

Having this discussion about
honorable living, and I'm like what

coward is on that commandants part?

You just missed a golden opportunity
to really develop those midshipmen.

And because they are going to need to
talk about this, they're going to need

to, to face this when they take command
of, you know, whatever group of sailors

or marines that they're gonna be in
charge of here in the short future,

because this is isn't going away.

And so, I mean, you know, I'll do a.

Yeah, exactly how to deal with it because
this is, this is on people's minds and,

and people's lives are impacted by this.

And so I don't know if
that mid-shift, that's

Sam Sigoloff: how they were taught
just in that moment right there,

that that became the standard.

Dave Hamski: Exactly.

Exactly.

Exactly.

That's, and, and that,
that sits with people.

And so, I dunno, I'll do shout out
to that midshipman, good job on you.

And if you ever want to talk about
honorable living as it you know coincides

with what we're facing right now.

You can hit me up, but go Army Beat

.
Sam Sigoloff: Yeah.

But if you're out there Mitch and give me
an email to, to, I'd like to talk to you.

It's after hours@seventeenninetyone.com.

After hours@seventeenninetyone.com,
I'd love to talk to you.

There was a similar story at Fort
Benning where there was a captain

who they, they had an auditorium, I
don't know if you've heard this story.

There was an auditorium.

Yeah.

And this guy's like Yeah, exactly.

He's, he's a, he's a friend of mine
and I'm not gonna say his name cuz

that he wants it out there again.

But as a, as a field grade officer in
an auditorium of everyone receiving

a gomar or a general order of memo
of rep memorandum of record, sorry.

General order general officer memorandum
of record, that's what it's gomar.

And they're talking about the
shot and they're saying things

that are clearly not true.

And this, this officer stands
up and said, you're lying.

That doesn't exist.

And they escorted him out and then later
arrested him and yeah, it wasn't good.

, but those are the leaders we need.

Those are true leaders who will
stand up against, you know,

the, and go against the grain.

That's personal courage.

I spoke with Pete Dr.

Pete Chambers a while back, and
he said that personal courage is

often more difficult Oh, yeah.

Than physical courage.

Cause like yeah, everyone's
gonna do the same thing.

When someone's shooting at you, you're
gonna make himself shooting at you.

But when you're going against the
grain, going against the leadership

and you can lose everything,

Dave Hamski: that's, and that's what
we need to be teaching, teaching

these, these young leaders and
reteaching our current leaders.

Because we're coming into a time, we're
already here, we've already arrived into

a time where we're gonna be challenged
more morally and ethically than ever.

You know, the, we'll still
be challenged physically, but

that's, that's the easy part.

You know, it's too easy to, to
push yourself through physically.

But it's the moral and ethical
dilemmas that you're gonna face

that are gonna keep piling up here.

So gotta prepare, prepare 'em now for it.

Sam Sigoloff: Exactly.

Okay.

And last question for you.

Looking back, what would
you have done different?

Dave Hamski: I wouldn't have done anything
differently because I'm able to go to

bed at night and rest and sleep well.

You know, I, I miss, I absolutely miss
leading paratroopers because I love them.

I, I love it, I love the job.

But I wouldn't, I wouldn't
do anything differently.

I mean, you know, I don't think
a, a request for a court martial

would've been granted in my case.

But.

. You know, I think, I think
it was, it was worth it.

It was definitely worth it to me.

And I've had multiple soldiers reach
out and just tell me thank you.

Or, you know, I have some that reach
out and ask for advice and, you

know, mentorship and everything.

And, you know, those, those relationships
wouldn't have happened if, if I

hadn't taken the stand that I took.

And also like just this
community of people who are

making, making the force better.

Like, I wholeheartedly believe that our
efforts will, will get us back on track.

You know, I don't want anyone
who's in right now to be like,

you know, all we're the worst.

Like, and, and just stop believing like.

And, and not having any hope.

You know, y'all are in there.

Do your job, do it well.

But, you know, have, have courage
and, you know, hopefully they can

learn something from, from us and,
and the rest who, who are going

out there and going out on a limb.

That hey, like you have it
in you, you, you can do it.

So, but no, I want,

Sam Sigoloff: and that's one thing I
wanna Good, that's one thing I wanna

say too is like, there is forgiveness.

Mm-hmm.

, right?

We want justice cuz God is a just
God, he's also a merciful God.

But you can't have the mercy of justice,
at least the conviction and, and

the stand trial and the conviction.

But there is forgiveness.

There is mercy, but at first you must.

Go through the process of admitting
and acknowledging that something

Dave Hamski: happened.

And, and I would, I would come
back and I would serve again, and

I would serve with the same people.

I, I would, you know, and I would do that.

But those, those things had
to happen first is, you know,

we need to have justice.

And and for some people, based on the
level of responsibility that they, that

they take on, when they give that order,
they're going to have, they bear more

of the brunt, they bear more of what's
gonna come down and what should happen.

So there's people who they should
no longer be, you know, commanding.

They should no longer be in the army.

Their, their records should
be marked permanently for it.

And then there's others who, you know,
they don't bear as much responsibility

for it, and they should have to, you know,
Recognize and, and talk about, hey, this

is, this is what went wrong with this.

So, yeah.

But there's, there's always forgiveness.

But for forgiveness is not, it doesn't
come without there being justice first.

Well,

Sam Sigoloff: you're, you're a
stronger man than, than I, cuz I will

never work for these people again.

As soon as I take that uniform
on off, I will never go back on.

Well, because I, I don't ever
wanna get back in the position.

I will defend this country,
don't get me wrong, but I won't

Dave Hamski: be doing it uniform.

Well, I don't know, maybe, maybe
it'll just be like another a short,

short step, you know, like, alright,
hey, we get rid of you again.

Yeah.

, so you, me and the five other people.

Exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

But also, like, if I can just do a
shout out to any other commanders

who, who, who are in the same position
You know, I, I would love to connect

and just hear about your experiences.

I don't know how many there were
of us, but I, I, I thought I saw

an Army Times article, which, oh
man, army Times, you can trust

everything that comes out of that.

It said something to the degree of there's
six, six commanders who are relieved.

So I don't know if that was like battalion
commanders or if they're counting company

commanders as well, but it, it would
be great to, to hear their story too.

Sam Sigoloff: And if you're one of
those commanders and you, you want to

use this platform email me same email
after hours@seventeenninetyone.com

after hours@seventeenninetyone.com.

That's the year the bill
of right is ratified.

Well, sir, thank you for coming on.

I truly appreciate it.

Where can people find you and find what
you're doing now that you get to live with

a long beard and get to be outside a lot
and, you know, have the, the proverbial

Dave Hamski: day?

Yeah.

Well, first of all, thank you, Sam, for,
for what you're doing and, and how you

lead and protect our God-given rights.

And then, and then people's health.

People's health.

It's, it's personal
and, and it's important.

And we need those who are truly
gifted and, and know about health.

We need those at the forefront to
help, help this nation get healthier.

So thank you for what you're doing.

But yeah, I'm up here in
Northwest Montana, specifically

in Kalispell, Montana.

And I'm a fishing guide in the
summertime on Flathead Lake.

So if you wanna catch some,
some massive lake trout.

Come out with come out with us
with fly Head Lake charters.

And then you know in the off season I help
people maintain and improve their homes.

I got a little handyman
business and I just start up.

So, you know if you're transitioning
outta the Army, just it's tough.

A transition of any branch of service
is tough, but like you can do it.

So set a goal and go
after it, make it happen.

If you need to reach out, I'm on
LinkedIn just as Dave Hams and

and then yeah, so that'd be great.

Sam Sigoloff: And that's
how we met was through

Dave Hamski: LinkedIn.

Yep.

Sam Sigoloff: Well, sir, I, I want
to thank you again and it's, it's

relationships like, like this, you
and I now have, I've been able to

have these types of interactions and
relationships with people all over.

The United States.

And that is one of the good things that's
come out of this, is I've been able to

meet some of the salt of the earth people,
people that will get thrown into that

furnace to be refined, not knowing they'll
come out alive, but like Sha Acne shack

and Ada come out and are better for it.

Exactly.

Without even the smell of smoke

Dave Hamski: on their glass.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And that's what we gotta do.

And then, you know iron sharpens
iron, so, you know good men need

to hang out and develop good men.

The same women too, you know, good women.

They need to hang out with good women and,
and we develop and sharpen each other.

So that, that's, I, I value
this relationship and, and the

relationships that come from this.

So let's, let's keep on
making each other better.

Sam Sigoloff: Yes.

Well, thank you.

And, and I'll be praying for you
and your family that, that you

have the success and the, and.

The joy in your life knowing that you've
done the right thing, cuz it, it will pay

off in this world and in the next same

Dave Hamski: to you.

God bless.

God bless you.

Sam Sigoloff: Just a reminder for
everyone out there in duty, uniform

of the day, the full armor of God.

Let's all make courage
more contagious than fear.